Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

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_Some Schmo
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _Some Schmo »

Exiled wrote:
EAllusion wrote:US law enforcement that is overwhelmingly conservative, including elements that specifically had violated policy guidelines and ethical norms to torpedo her candidacy in the actual election.

They are also very pro-war and want to continue the billions being funneled through the military industrial complex.

Right. Every employee of all of the US intelligence agencies are one, monolithic hive mind, all bent on starting wars, because they all personally benefit from military spending.

Meanwhile, a giant cabal of scientists is secretly manipulating climate data to screw those poor, poor fossil fuel companies out of their tiny profits.

Is anything happening in the world that isn't a giant conspiracy?
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _Dr Exiled »

honorentheos wrote:Popular expressions of core political thinking seems to be more than just simplified, but lacking in fundamental aspects of the underlying theories that give them meaning. I see that here in Exiled's posts but it's hardly unique and I'm sure I'm guilty of it in my own way as well.


Please explain. Are you saying that one has to adhere to this or that political theory in order to have a valid opinion? I've never been to scotland but I have distant ancestors who hail from there. Russiagate came up empty regardless if one is a true libertarian or true progressive or true corporatist republican or true corporatist democrat.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Perfume on my Mind wrote:
Right. Every employee of all of the US intelligence agencies are one, monolithic hive mind, all bent on starting wars, because they all personally benefit from military spending.

Meanwhile, a giant cabal of scientists is secretly manipulating climate data to screw those poor, poor fossil fuel companies out of their tiny profits.

Is anything happening in the world that isn't a giant conspiracy?[/quote]

Those at the top benefit and I never said every employee.... but you know that already.

When did I ever say there are scientists manipulating climate data? In fact your russiagate conspiracy theory is focusing attention away from solving climate problems, if still possible.

Can you handle disagreement?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_honorentheos
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _honorentheos »

Exiled wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Popular expressions of core political thinking seems to be more than just simplified, but lacking in fundamental aspects of the underlying theories that give them meaning. I see that here in Exiled's posts but it's hardly unique and I'm sure I'm guilty of it in my own way as well.


Please explain. Are you saying that one has to adhere to this or that political theory in order to have a valid opinion? I've never been to scotland but I have distant ancestors who hail from there. Russiagate came up empty regardless if one is a true libertarian or true progressive or true corporatist republican or true corporatist democrat.

I mean that there is rigorous, developed and connected thinking that underlies most if not all of the differing political theories that we recognize. And that this thinking, taken in total, provides solid reasons for giving them consideration that also justify why a plurality of views is generally better for society over a monocultural society or single party dominance. Reality is unimaginably complex and we reduce that complexity out of necessity into our various symbols and placeholders to make sense out of it. But this means we are losing something in the process. Having access to different ways of organizing can help fill in those gaps. These differing views often hold key insights into solving problems that no single ideology has a monopoly on, but it is useful to understand the theory's grounding in order to make those evaluations.

What we seem to see more and more is a move away from both acknowledging the validity of underlying theories broadly, but especially of those views which we have aligned against. To the point we can't even caricature them well. But even worse, this seems to be the case for the political "side" people believe they are aligned with where we seem to lack an informed understanding of the underlying reasoning in favor of simplistic, perhaps even misapplied representations.

In your case in this thread, I don't need to guess at your opinions on certain issues such as military spending and action, or broadly if corporations and big business is a net positive or negative for our society. But I can't ground your opinions into rational, organized theories about how society ought to work in a way that coheres. I think that's common, and it probably applies to me as well. I'm speculating this is so pervasive, and now seems so obvious entropy would impose itself in this way, that I would be surprised to discover it isn't studied by someone somewhere. I'm wondering who, and what they've put out if anything.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_EAllusion
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _EAllusion »

The vast majority of voters aren’t ideological. Of those that are, most ideological thinking is very poorly thought out. Elites mediate ideological dispute, but their influence on the body politic has been waning for years.

The amount of actual considered, opposing ideological views that aren’t obviously and immediately wrong having sway in political negotiation is in severe decline and was overrated in popular talk about politics to begin with. Politics as actually practiced is more tribal and self-interested.
_honorentheos
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:The vast majority of voters aren’t ideological. Of those that are, most ideological thinking is very poorly thought out. Elites mediate ideological dispute, but their influence on the body politic has been waning for years.

The amount of actual considered, opposing ideological views that aren’t obviously and immediately wrong having sway in political negotiation is in severe decline and was overrated in popular talk about politics to begin with. Politics as actually practiced is more tribal and self-interested.

That seems to be the case, but I'm not comfortable with the implications for democracy.

I am curious if you are familiar with any deeper dives on my question that you could suggest?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Some Schmo
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _Some Schmo »

Exiled wrote:Those at the top benefit and I never said every employee.... but you know that already.

So everyone at the top is a monolithic hive mind. Got it.

Exiled wrote:When did I ever say there are scientists manipulating climate data? In fact your russiagate conspiracy theory is focusing attention away from solving climate problems, if still possible.

Right, if only we weren't focused on Russia, Trump would be doing everything he could to solve the climate issue.

I didn't say you said anything about climate. I was comparing your conspiracy theory to that one, in hopes that it would give you an idea of just how dumb your beliefs on Russia really are.

Exiled wrote:Can you handle disagreement?

Of opinions? Sure. Of facts? No, Screw you.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Perfume:

Have you ever thought that perhaps there aren't any white knights here? Everyone in our politics has an agenda also warring factions have areas of agreement, e.g., casino competitors here in Las Vegas fight tooth and nail, yet will agree when wage issues are in front of the legislature. It's not all black and white.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Some Schmo
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _Some Schmo »

Exiled wrote:Perfume:

Have you ever thought that perhaps there aren't any white knights here? Everyone in our politics has an agenda also warring factions have areas of agreement, e.g., casino competitors here in Las Vegas fight tooth and nail, yet will agree when wage issues are in front of the legislature. It's not all black and white.

Sure, but that doesn't change what I've personally experienced with respect to Russian interference. I saw Trump ask the Russians to hack the DNC. I saw the timely release of the emails. I saw Putin make his cheesy, transparent denial. I saw the email correspondence between Russians and Don Jr. Etc.

If you're trying to sell me on the idea that Mueller's report is one big lie, well, to quote Jack Nicholson, "Sell crazy somewhere else."
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Mueller dissatisfied with Barr's 4 page memo

Post by _Dr Exiled »

honorentheos wrote:I mean that there is rigorous, developed and connected thinking that underlies most if not all of the differing political theories that we recognize. And that this thinking, taken in total, provides solid reasons for giving them consideration that also justify why a plurality of views is generally better for society over a monocultural society or single party dominance. Reality is unimaginably complex and we reduce that complexity out of necessity into our various symbols and placeholders to make sense out of it. But this means we are losing something in the process. Having access to different ways of organizing can help fill in those gaps. These differing views often hold key insights into solving problems that no single ideology has a monopoly on, but it is useful to understand the theory's grounding in order to make those evaluations.

What we seem to see more and more is a move away from both acknowledging the validity of underlying theories broadly, but especially of those views which we have aligned against. To the point we can't even caricature them well. But even worse, this seems to be the case for the political "side" people believe they are aligned with where we seem to lack an informed understanding of the underlying reasoning in favor of simplistic, perhaps even misapplied representations.

In your case in this thread, I don't need to guess at your opinions on certain issues such as military spending and action, or broadly if corporations and big business is a net positive or negative for our society. But I can't ground your opinions into rational, organized theories about how society ought to work in a way that coheres. I think that's common, and it probably applies to me as well. I'm speculating this is so pervasive, and now seems so obvious entropy would impose itself in this way, that I would be surprised to discover it isn't studied by someone somewhere. I'm wondering who, and what they've put out if anything.


My thinking comes from the fact that everyone has a selfish agenda. I have some experience with politics and politicians and their donors. The donor agenda is always front and center. Otherwise, why contribute if the politician is going to cave to the public interest? Academics and think tanks seem to have been captured by the donor class and political theory seems to bow to the donor's interests as well. We see this time and time again with military contractors and the billions they get through the defense budget every year. Big military spending depends on endless war and the terrorist threat seems to have waned. The cold war was good for business and so why not recreate it by poking the bear?

Trump, the uncontrollable, me-first, I want to use the art of the deal to broker peace with everyone, comes along and spoils the party by wanting to have better relations with Russia. This is what he campaigned on. Wikileaks gets damaging emails on Clinton and so Russia is conveniently blamed. She loses and so the excuse continues. Republican, democrat, and media neocons join the fray. It turns out to be great for media business speculating on how this created spy thriller will end. So, the media, especially Rachel Maddow, endlessly hype the story. Too bad it ended with a thud.

However, perhaps it ended because converting Trump to endless war and piracy was the goal all along. He is trying to overthrow Venezuela right now. Check. He is supporting genocide in Yemen. Check. He is arming the rebels in Syria. Check. And he is pushing for war with Iran. Check. So, no need any longer to have the investigation.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
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