The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

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_Gadianton
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Gadianton »

Billy Shears responded:



Billy Shears wrote:Since you asked, I’ve read the Book of Mormon cover to cover about a dozen times.
Hi Bruce,

Let’s take a step back. According to The Maya, we know a lot about Lamanai. For example, it lies next to a river and has 718 structures. It was a very important Mayan city in terms of trade and was “occupied from earliest times right into the post-Conquest period.”

According to the Book of Mormon, all we know for sure about the city of Laman is that it and its inhabitants were destroyed by fire in AD 34, and then may have been rebuilt and repopulated about 35 years later, near the pinnacle of the 4th Nephi Christian Utopia when the people were all converted upon all the face of the land, and there were no Lamanites nor any other type of -ite.

Analysis:

1- A city being completely destroyed and abandoned for 25 years doesn’t fit Coe’s implication that it was continuously inhabited from earliest times. Thus, this doesn’t fit.

2- After it was rebuilt in AD 59, it would no longer have been a Lamanite city—it would have been a Christian city enjoying Utopia under the law of consecration.

3- If we are now assuming that there is a strong tendency to change the names of cities when new inhabitants with different views take over, shouldn’t we assume that when the explicitly Christian and non-Lamanites rebuilt the city of Laman, they would have changed the name to something that wasn’t associated with an infamous murmurer? I think the chances are poor that the name of this city survived its destruction.

Be all that as it may, let’s return to the lesson on Bayesian reasoning. My a priori probability of a Book of Mormon name surviving was only 10%, and was intended to be conservative and account for most names not surviving. But if we are changing our expectations and thought that if the Book of Mormon were true, we would expect not to see hardly any Nephite names still around and maybe only one explicitly Lamanite name survive (e.g. finding a Mesoamerican city called “Zarahemlo,” and a river called “Xidon” and a “Land of Nefee” would all count against Book of Mormon’s authenticity), we could change our expectations of matches from 10% down to 1%. If those were our expectations, the probability of exactly one city matching would be (100 * 0.99^99 * .01 = 37%). Thus, under this revised assumption the likelihood ratio would be 0.22 / 0.37 = 0.59.


It doesn't really matter what values he's using, he's running circles around Dale, as Dale has no idea himself how to come up with any of the calculations. Billy shows in every post how Dale's expectations don't follow through the way he thinks they will, that's the take-home.
Lemmie wrote:So many comments have been made about the inappropriateness of assigning likelihood ratio values equal to the guessing probability only


Right, so Billy is creatively showing why it's going to be impossible for Dale to guestimate his way through LR assignment. Basically, he'll have to have a 12 part conversation with Billy for each one and pull out justifications to get the numbers dialed in.

I wasn't aware of the apologetic for justifying the destroyed city, talk about the pinnacle of desperation. I mean, it's obvious the entire verse that has a bunch of Lamanite cities destroyed outside the narrative is just for effect. And to underscore they are really bad, they are named after the bad guys - "Gad" "Kishkuman" "Laman".
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Gadianton
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Gadianton »

Dale pulled the "I'm a mining engineer nerd" on H in one of the responses. lol. He's definitely not a stats nerd! LOL!

But his professed mining expertise again bothered me, given he considers iron and steel as independent. But I had an idea, and went back to a very revealing statement and sure enough, I'd missed the obvious. I think I may have found the lynchpin that brings the entire rickety Tower of Dale crashing to the ground. (yeah, each one of us has said this thirteen times and we've all been right every time)

Okay, brace yourselves, it's all come down to this...

Dale wrote: (1) horses, (2) elephants, (3) iron, (4) steel, (5) copper and (6) refined gold and silver. (We combine refined gold and refined silver instead of considering them individually because gold and silver are usually found together, and thus to refine gold is also to refine silver.)


He's willing to throw the Book of Mormon under the bus for iron and steel when steel depends on iron, and he's a mining expert so he has to know this, but then he salvages a hit by combining silver and gold. Why?

To refine gold is also to refine silver, but yet, to refine silver is also to refine gold. It's a biconditional. mine sliver <----> mine gold. But while if you have steel you have iron, it's not true that if you have iron you have steel. steel --> iron.

Given all the suspicious to downright obvious events that Dale has said are independent that are really dependent, the one theory consistent with the data we have to explain his confusion, is that he thinks dependency is only established in a biconditional relationship.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_honorentheos
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _honorentheos »

Thank you for reading the whole thing, Eric. I think you are one of the few commentators who has actually done so.

I have studied the DNA issue in some depth. We gave it a weight of 50 in order to give the Book of Mormon the most difficult possible test within the parameters we set.

In reality, I think the DNA issue actually a 2 at best. There are two major scientific limitations on any firm conclusions. I don’t think these limitations can be overcome.

First, “what is the control group”? That is, what is the appropriate genetic benchmark representative of Lehi’s group which we can use to compare with “paleo-Indian” samples? We really know very little about Lehi’s group, particularly for the maternal mitochondrial DNA that is used in most such DNA studies. What was Sariah’s ancestry, and in particular, what was the ancestry of the daughters of Ishmael with whom the sons of Lehi intermarried? We just don’t know.

Second, what is the appropriate group of Native American DNA samples to compare the Lehite DNA with (if we had the Lehite DNA, which we don’t)? Once again, we just don’t know.

The problem is made even worse by the genetic catastrophe through which the Amerind populations passed after contact with the Europeans. By some estimates, over 95% of the total Amerind population in the Americas died in the decades after contact. In other words, the Lehite DNA could very well not have survived contact, even if it existed.

In short, I don’t think DNA evidence is ever going to be useful to “prove” anything for or against the Book of Mormon.

Yes, the offer of Coe’s book is still open. If you will give me your address, I will see that our friends at Amazon send you a copy.

Again, thanks for reading the whole, very long, thing.

Bruce


It's hard to say whether Simon Southerton or Lemmie will find this more exasperating. Is his DNA apologetic worse than his pandering approach to assigning likelihood ratios? Hm.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _honorentheos »

Gadianton wrote:Dale pulled the "I'm a mining engineer nerd" on H in one of the responses. lol. He's definitely not a stats nerd! LOL!


His response regarding pearls possibly dissolving so their mention in the Book of Mormon can be excused would be humourous on it's own. It's hilarious when one recalls they brought up pearls as a strike against the Bible if it were compared to the Maya. Dale, Dale, Dale...


Given all the suspicious to downright obvious events that Dale has said are independent that are really dependent, the one theory consistent with the data we have to explain his confusion, is that he thinks dependency is only established in a biconditional relationship.

It's a good point you make. I believe Lemmie pointed out this contradiction earlier in the thread but it certainly makes one curious if their thinking is as you describe. Could one have chariots without horses? Or tapirs? I don't know. I wonder if Bruce Dale knows what he himself thinks.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Bruce can’t help but do the very thing that Bayesian analysis is supposed to help him avoid: interpreting the evidence to make it fit the hypothesis he wants to be true. The evidence is the absence of Jewish DNA. If we assume the Book of Mormon is history, the likelihood we would find no Jewish DNA is relatively low. Is it possible? I’ll defer to DNA experts. But possible doesn’t mean probable. On the other hand, if the Book of Mormon is not history, the likelihood of finding no Jewish DNA is one. To get Bruce’s LR of 2, he has to evaluate the likelihood that Jews traveled to Americas and settled them but their DNA disappeared entirely as a coin flip!
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

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_Lemmie
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

res Ipsa wrote:Bruce can’t help but do the very thing that Bayesian analysis is supposed to help him avoid: interpreting the evidence to make it fit the hypothesis he wants to be true...


I was reading over something about one of the correspondences when I was reminded (again!) of the truly inconsistent and biased argumentation he uses to make his hypothesis fit.

To explain why things Dr. Coe mentioned that are not in the Book of Mormon are NOT counted as "misses," the Dales argue this at the end of appendix B, in a section titled

A few ridiculous objections to the Book of Mormon and a rejoinder to Dr. Coe:
As for chocolate, turkeys, and jaguars, the Book of Mormon does not claim to be a text on elite foods, poultry, or exotic wild animals. The Book of Mormon, from beginning to end, is meant to testify of Christ and bring all humankind to him....

Knowledge of turkeys, jaguars, and consumption of chocolate among the ancient Mesoamericans is of no real worth.

Knowing about Jesus Christ, about eternal life, about the resurrection, and the mercy that has been made available to us through Christ are topics of supernal worth.


Okay, but why then count that type of knowledge as correspondences when it favors the Dale's hypothesis that the Book of Mormon is non-fictional?

As an example, the following items that are arguably NOT topics of supernal worth are all considered independent, and get the best likelihood ratio (0.02) in support of the Dales' hypothesis:

1. Drought,
2. snakes,
3. easy to get lost in thick wilderness,
4. forest regrowth,
5. volcano,
6. earthquakes,
7. powerful city,
8. many cities,
9. stones used to fight,
10. "darts" used to fight,
11. thick cloth armor,
12. wars destroy,
13. exchange of ideas and things (yes, THINGS),
14. Cultures decline,
15. extravagant architecture,
16. poetic parallelisms and repetition (yes, a 0.02 for coincidences found after the fact),
17. cement,
18. SKILL in cement,
19. worksmanship,
20. workmanship in carving
21. books, and
22. books stored
23. ornamental copper
24. fabrics
25. many people
26. calendars kept
27. multiple calendars kept
28. genealogy traced, AND
29. genealogy important, AND
30. genealogy recorded!!!

I stopped after going through about half the positive correspondences, it was just too obvious that the Dales argument about non-supernal topics is biased. I'd like to see the Dales argue in the comments that "exchanging things," "getting lost," and "coincidences" are supernal topics of eternal worth, otherwise they are using a ridiculous double standard here, and compounding it with an independence argument.

That's just 30 items from a partial run through, all with ratios of 0.02 or 1/50; that covers about 80 billion's worth of the odds the Dales are counting in favor of a historical Book of Mormon.

I cannot see how the Dales think an argument like this is legitimate analysis, nor can I see how peer review would have allowed it to stand without requiring further comment.
_aussieguy55
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Lemmie, I think it’s because he’s thinking apologetically. All he thinks he has to do is swat down objections with possible ways the evidence could be interpreted in favor of the conclusion he wants to reach. One he’s swatted an objection, he checks it off the list and moves on to the next one. It never occurs to him to put all of his interpretations together to see if they contradict each other. That’s why the paper is such a mess of inconsistency and outright contradiction.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Res Ipsa »

aussieguy55 wrote:Has anyone seen this http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/a-respons ... 7G5aj2lyp4


Good response. It hits on several methodological flaws and sheds valuable insight into what the paper actually does, as opposed to what the Dales think it does.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_honorentheos
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _honorentheos »

I have a question wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Maybe not the most technical exchange but possibly my favorite so far:

Brian Dale
on May 28, 2019 at 6:35 pm said:
Hi Billy,

You said “If I wrote an academic paper and claimed that a statistical analysis indicated that in all likelihood the leading experts in a field were wrong about something…”.

Please be aware that we are not claiming that Dr. Coe is wrong in his field of expertise. Quite to the contrary, in our analysis we assume without reservation that he is completely correct about everything he claims regarding the Mayans, his undisputed field of expertise.

Dr. Coe, however, is no expert on the Book of Mormon. The analysis indicates that in all likelihood he is wrong on his non-expert opinion about the Book of Mormon.

Reply ↓

Billy Shears
on May 29, 2019 at 9:54 am said:
Hi Brian,

The point of your paper is that “There is overwhelming evidence that the Book of Mormon has physical, political, geographical, religious, military, technological, and cultural roots in ancient Mesoamerica.” If that were true, a competent Mesoamericanist would only need to read the Book of Mormon once to recognize it.

Your assertion that Dr. Coe is an undisputed expert on the Maya but is not an expert on the Book of Mormon seems to tacitly admit that the Maya and the Book of Mormon are mutually exclusive.

Priceless.

It's worth looking up Dr. Bruce Dale's response to this from the weekend.

Hi Billy,
Brian and his family are under the weather, and Brian has a three year old boy to potty train while his mom is sick, so I will take it upon myself to answer your comment above.

You state: “Your assertion that Dr. Coe is an undisputed expert on the Maya but is not an expert on the Book of Mormon seems to tacitly admit that the Maya and the Book of Mormon are mutually exclusive.”

Here is my response to your somewhat silly comment. This point has been repeated ad nauseam by now.

It is precisely because Dr. Coe himself claims that, based on his knowledge, 99% of the details of the Book of Mormon are wrong that Brian and I wrote this paper. It is because Dr. Coe himself says that the Book of Mormon has little to do ancient Mesoamerican Indian cultures that we wrote this article to see if the fact claims of the Book of Mormon (“guesses” if you assume that it is a work of fiction) of the correspond to facts cited in The Maya.

So we are here because Dr. Coe himself says that the Book of Mormon and ancient Mesoamerican Indian cultures are NOT mutually exclusive–as your comment implies. (And not just for the Maya, as you repeatedly and mistakenly claim.)

In the article, we take Coe’s charge seriously and find that a great many of the fact claims of the Book of Mormon line up very well with the facts summarized in Coe’s book.

So, nice try, but no, Billy.

Bruce
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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