There is no case to be made for a historical Book of Mormon

[_Shulem]

At least his middle initial isn't specified.

I grew up thinking it was "H", as in Jesus H Christ!!!!!

Henry or Harry?

[_Physics Guy]

I grew up thinking it was "H", as in Jesus H Christ!!!!!

Yeah. Something that looks like JHC is an ancient Christian symbol that does mean Jesus but isn't really that kind of initials.

I often see the lowercase form ihc and think "square root of -1, Planck's constant, speed of light". It's a product that sometimes comes up in quantum field theory. The h is often even written with a cross through the upright so it looks like h-bar (the symbol for Planck's constant divided by 2π, which comes up much more often than Planck's constant itself). Anyway it always distracts me. Just for a moment I look for the rest of the equation.

[_EAllusion]

Saying Jesus rose from the dead establishes the underlying likelihood of supernatural translation of the Book of Mormon as an ancient text is like saying because my phone can take pictures, that means alien abduction stories are plausible. A universe in which at least one religious figure several thousand years ago was clinically dead, but then not, doesn't mean all bets are off and all religious claims become inherently plausible. It just means that people can come back from the dead.

[_Kishkumen]

Moreover, how can we know that Jesus did rise from the dead? All we know is that some of his followers seem to have believed he rose from the dead.

[_Physics Guy]

It's a lot easier than one might think to read complexity into a text. First of all a certain kind of chaotic complexity happens easily, even automatically, if you compose a story on the fly without planning it out in advance or revising it afterwards. I wrote a first draft of a novel quite quickly once; I thought that stalling would be the biggest problem so I just kept writing. The result wasn't good but it was certainly complicated.

Secondly, any complicated story like that is a great Rorschach blot. If you try to make sense of it by connecting up dots or setting it in new contexts, you can do that in dozens of ways. Especially if the story was heavily influenced by other stories—like the fantasy novels Steelhead mentioned—you can see all kinds of links that will be meaningful if you want them to be.

Many English majors will be able to show intertextuality between practically any two sets of texts, in fact, just on a beer bet. The connections will all be fictitious inventions constructed in hindsight using the enormous freedom of introducing arbitrary new contexts. The authors didn't really write those intertextual references into their texts on purpose any more than the shapes in the clouds are real horsies and duckies.

So complex structures and intertextuality under anachronisms and plagiarism aren't a very solid branch on which to stand, I'm afraid.

[_EAllusion]

Moreover, how can we know that Jesus did rise from the dead? All we know is that some of his followers seem to have believed he rose from the dead.

At least some LDS apologists are into Habermas style historicity arguments for the resurrection of Jesus. They're, uh, not good. My favorite reply to those is to compare them to LDS apologetics. While a conundrum for evangelicals who normally are the purveyors of this kind of argument, this particular reductio ad absurdum tactic does not work on literal LDS apologists.

Anyway, yeah, good luck supporting Jesus rising from the dead. I think what Nevo is getting at is that if you are Christian, you probably already believe this, so whatever convinced you of that belief has already put in the work. The logic seems to be that one miracle makes another plausible, but it doesn't. Each miraculous claim has its own burden to meet. It doesn't even follow from resurrection happening that anything diety-like was involved. There's a lot of missing steps here. His line of reasoning seems like a slightly dressed up, "I don't know man. You believe crazy things can happen. Why not this crazy one?"

[_Kishkumen]

Of course, intertextuality between the KJV and the Book of Mormon is to be expected, but it is not the basis for establishing the Book of Mormon's antiquity.

[Guest]

It's a lot easier than one might think to read complexity into a text. First of all a certain kind of chaotic complexity happens easily, even automatically, if you compose a story on the fly without planning it out in advance or revising it afterwards. I wrote a first draft of a novel quite quickly once; I thought that stalling would be the biggest problem so I just kept writing. The result wasn't good but it was certainly complicated.

Secondly, any complicated story like that is a great Rorschach blot. If you try to make sense of it by connecting up dots or setting it in new contexts, you can do that in dozens of ways. Especially if the story was heavily influenced by other stories—like the fantasy novels Steelhead mentioned—you can see all kinds of links that will be meaningful if you want them to be.

Many English majors will be able to show intertextuality between practically any two sets of texts, in fact, just on a beer bet. The connections will all be fictitious inventions constructed in hindsight using the enormous freedom of introducing arbitrary new contexts. The authors didn't really write those intertextual references into their texts on purpose any more than the shapes in the clouds are real horsies and duckies.

So complex structures and intertextuality under anachronisms and plagiarism aren't a very solid branch on which to stand, I'm afraid.

This, and because we are human and live with a general shared history and languages and on a shared planet, we are going to have universal archetypes and just commonality running from prehistory to now. It's an inevitability. Anyways, you reminded me of an AP English essay I wrote my senior year of highschool. A typical burnt-out, early-morning-seminary- student, I had not read A Heart of Darkness. No problem. I knew the general plot, just opened the book in a few places and began discussing the use of light. A+

[_Kishkumen]

His line of reasoning seems like a slightly dressed up, "I don't know man. You believe crazy things can happen. Why not this crazy one?"

The composition of the Book of Mormon presupposes a naïve understanding of the Bible as history. So it is not surprising that Book of Mormon believers would take this approach.

[_Nightlion]

Moreover, how can we know that Jesus did rise from the dead? All we know is that some of his followers seem to have believed he rose from the dead.

We KNOW because Jesus is yet faithful today to fulfill his promise. With out sufficient forethought, therefore I did not know what to expect out of great personal NEED I sought the Lord to heal me of my inflicted weakness that robbed me of a whole soul. As a Senior in High School I realized that I must fix what my parents purposely put upon me. I went to Colorado and hung out with the real hippies, but then I chose to forsake them and at that moment of choice I first felt a love from God. Thus my purposefulness was fixed. I went back to work to earn enough to venture out alone again, this time to Los Angeles. I was a bass guitar player and wasted a month in LA only slightly seeking but fasting Saturday night to Monday morning. After New Years Day 1970 I quit all other considerations and focused upon my quest for a healing from God. On the way down to California my car broke a water hose in the middle of nowhere, at night. Here is where I first prayed a NON-ROTE prayer. I was learning how to pray in earnest. I now walked out to the beach in Santa Monica nearly 8 miles each way. I was drawing out my soul and distilling my thoughts to one intent upon being healed of God from the emotional crippling I accepted from the extreme resentment and refusal to validate not even once loving eye contact from my parents. I accepted their script and did not rebel and attended to their every whim....waiting....but then they showed up at a teenage night club where my band was headlining with our name on a banner out front. I did not even tell them, but my friend was jealous because I was more creative at the time and he would not have it so he invited both our parents to show up. It was the most uncool thing that could possibly happen. We got tossed. So no need to wait for their approbation.

Distilling my soul while watching the waves roll in by the Santa Monica Pier for three weeks, doing nothing else but walk out and walk back and praying and fasting and feeling charity for the people I passed each way. Ignoring the LDS Los Angeles Temple I passed by twice. I had no expectation of being Mormon.

Then I was taken into the depths of humility by the impression of God upon my soul. I was asked 'if I was willing to take upon me the name of Jesus Christ with full purpose of heart and at any and all hazard.' I agreed. Then I was taken down to a second level of earnestness and contrition, same thing was put to my mind and again I agreed. A third time at the bottom of my soul I was qualified one more time in the very depths of humility and earnestness. I agreed. Got up and walked around my bed in sleeping room I rented off Sunset Strip on Gardner across from the Denny's.

The same event witnessed of throughout the Old Testament when prophets were given a new heart from God, and promised in the Book of Mormon throughout and specified in Acts Chapter One which is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost did in fact fall upon me and I was beyond healed, I was given a new heart and soul, my mind was quickened, I had a sudden thought about one of my band mates fate that he would soon die, (a little over a month later he did) This was not the traitor who envied my talent, but a really good friend and neighbor and an great musician who happened to teach me rhythm drumming on his knees on our way up to Camp Steiner in the High Uintahs as boy scouts, it was 7/8 time. da, duh, da, duh, da, dut, dut. I knew he was about to go by revelation at the same moment God was healing me and making me his.

Joseph Smith did not know this gospel when he was receiving the Book of Mormon. But it is there from beginning to end. Christianity has forgotten this gospel to this very day. Mormons are so darkened in their minds by partaking of the sacrament unworthily for 190 years that they can not see it still.

The Book of Mormon was written in Reformed Egyptian script and their words were great and difficult to place upon a plate. God revealed 'His' reading of the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith. I suppose he did the same with the gospel writers. People can overthink and call it critical but the only thing critical about it is that they must get to the conclusion they desire.

My life since has been abundant in the gifts of God and I have progressed up 'till today. Might be the only one. I honestly have not found another. Nobody yet preaches this gospel I have experienced and what all scripture commands. Jesus said about it that 'no man can come unto him except the Father draw him' and that just the way it's gonna be.