The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

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_Lemmie
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

How can Bruce Dale not see the mathematical inconsistency of his responses?
honorentheos wrote:
From Bruce Dale, on June 16th,

...You want your set of hypotheses to cover all of the space and to not overlap. Our set of hypotheses is that the Book of Mormon is either fiction or it is non-fiction. That is an exhaustive and exclusive set, and that type of partitioning of the space is common (A or not A), since it is the easiest way to form an exhaustive and exclusive set with two hypotheses.

But you also quoted this from Dale, later:
Our paper considers only a limited set of facts, those which are dealt with by both the Book of Mormon and by The Maya.

Back to the last part of this post:
Fiction vs non-fiction, as we have set up the analysis, is already both exclusive and exhaustive. This approach satisfies the statistical requirements and is a common approach to Bayesian analysis.

Bruce


To use the Dale's Venn diagram example, out of two mutually exclusive, exhaustive hypotheses, they cherry-picked a tiny sample of two DIFFERENT hypotheses. These other hypotheses have not been established as being necessarily contained, exhaustively and/or mutually exclusively, within either of the two original hypotheses. In other words, a crap show of meaningless statistical verbiage.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Gadianton »

h wrote:There were a flurry of posts on The Interpreters comment section over the weekend,


I didn't predict he'd do this, but it does seem like a good move. At a certain point the critics will get tired of him not getting it and walk away, and if he keeps on top of it, tirelessly responding and has the last word, then at the end of the day the Mopologists will claim this is one of those cases of "asked and answered".
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _DrW »

honorentheos excerpting from Bruce Dale message to Billy Shear wrote:
If you want to consider ALL evidence for or against the Book of Mormon, then bring it on. I can hardly wait to talk about tumbaga, Nahom, the Land Bountiful on the coast of Oman, 50 men being the standard military unit in the Book of Mormon (and the Old Testament), “river of water” and a zillion more pieces of evidence for Book of Mormon that are not dealt with in Coe’s book–so I could not include them one way or the other.

Please recall that I included as evidence against the Book of Mormon a number of points that Coe’s book says nothing about. So I have already done in part what you want to do.

But if we go further down that road, you will have to allow me to bring in all the evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. Your job will be to bring in all of the negative evidence.

Bruce

There is no other way to describe it - this is exceedingly painful to watch. Bruce just doesn't get it.

Once Bruce widens the scope of his claims of historicity for the Book of Mormon to include " ALL evidence for or against the Book of Mormon-", and challenges Billy to "bring it on", he has asked for a replay of a battle that has already been lost in spectacular fashion by the Mopologists. Billy could simply link to the Hamblin - Jensen debate transcript and drop the mic.

The Hamblin - Jensen debate, already referred to at least twice on this thread, was won, most decisively, by Professor Jensen. Bruce should read through that bit of Mopologetic history before he makes the error of engaging in a battle that has already resulted in abject defeat for his claims of historicity. The battle of Book of Mormon historicity has been lost by Mormon apologists more than once, and each new defeat seems more spectacular than the last.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _DrW »

Gadianton wrote:
h wrote:There were a flurry of posts on The Interpreters comment section over the weekend,


I didn't predict he'd do this, but it does seem like a good move. At a certain point the critics will get tired of him not getting it and walk away, and if he keeps on top of it, tirelessly responding and has the last word, then at the end of the day the Mopologists will claim this is one of those cases of "asked and answered".

Dean Robbers,

One humble apprentice believes that this time may be different. You see, the kinds of apologetic gambits that you refer to may well work when they turn on historical evidence that could be open to interpretation, or to statements of Mormon leaders that could be claimed to have been improperly recorded or misunderstood .

This time, the argument turns on objective and well understood and documented mathematical operations that were erroneously executed by the apologist, leading to ridiculous conclusions. This time, properly credentialed critics have pointed out the problems, illustrated how these problems would lead to errors in the conclusion, and then provided instructions on the proper application of the mathematics at issue.

No amount of dodging, deflecting, denying, obfuscation or BS can excuse or cover up the nonsense set forth in the Dales' paper.

Factually falsifiable claims are a danger to the proposition of Book of Mormon historicity - mathematically falsifiable claims can be fatal.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Physics Guy »

Here's an argument that I'm pretty sure would just bounce right off the Dales, but it struck me as pretty powerful.

Consider a hypothetical other book which is not at all like the Book of Mormon in any of the details of its plot or characters. The characters all have different names and the course of events is completely unrelated. Nonetheless this hypothetical book does share the Book of Mormon's basic concept of ancient Middle Easterners in Mesoamerica.

And it also happens to share all of the features which the Dales' article counts as evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. So therefore, according to the Dales' methodology, this totally different book also has to have the same astronomical odds of being authentic history as the Book of Mormon.

Now consider a second hypothetical book which, like the Book of Mormon and the first hypothetical book, has all the Dales' "hit" features, but which tells a completely different set of stories from both those books. It must also be highly likely to be authentic, according to the Dales.

And now realize that there could easily be hundreds of books of completely different stories about ancient Middle Easterners in Mesoamerica, yet all having all of the Dales' "hit" features. According to the Dales' methodology, they would all be virtually certain to be authentic.

But of course there is no way they can possibly all be authentic, because there is no way that ancient Mesoamerica can have been full of hundreds of different Middle Eastern tribes all doing wildly different things over several centuries. It would have needed thousands of cities, hundreds of battlefields, millions of artifacts. Apart from everything else, there would not have been room.

It's true that all these hundreds of alternate Books of Mormon are only hypothetical. No doubt the Dales will consider this very important, and so not be fazed by this point in the least. But a methodology is only sound if it is sound for every possible case, and those hundreds of alternate Books of Mormon are perfectly possible. If a crazy billionaire wanted to pay a stable of starving authors to write them, they could really be written.

What excuse could the Dales invoke, to stop their argument for authenticity from applying to any of those alternate books? And whatever the excuse might be, why would it not equally apply to the Book of Mormon itself?
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _DrW »

Physics Guy wrote:Here's an argument that I'm pretty sure would just bounce right off the Dales, but it struck me as pretty powerful.

Consider a hypothetical other book which is not at all like the Book of Mormon in any of the details of its plot or characters. The characters all have different names and the course of events is completely unrelated. Nonetheless this hypothetical book does share the Book of Mormon's basic concept of ancient Middle Easterners in Mesoamerica.

And it also happens to share all of the features which the Dales' article counts as evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. So therefore, according to the Dales' methodology, this totally different book also has to have the same astronomical odds of being authentic history as the Book of Mormon.

Now consider a second hypothetical book which, like the Book of Mormon and the first hypothetical book, has all the Dales' "hit" features, but which tells a completely different set of stories from both those books. It must also be highly likely to be authentic, according to the Dales.

And now realize that there could easily be hundreds of books of completely different stories about ancient Middle Easterners in Mesoamerica, yet all having all of the Dales' "hit" features. According to the Dales' methodology, they would all be virtually certain to be authentic.

But of course there is no way they can possibly all be authentic, because there is no way that ancient Mesoamerica can have been full of hundreds of different Middle Eastern tribes all doing wildly different things over several centuries. It would have needed thousands of cities, hundreds of battlefields, millions of artifacts. Apart from everything else, there would not have been room.

It's true that all these hundreds of alternate Books of Mormon are only hypothetical. No doubt the Dales will consider this very important, and so not be fazed by this point in the least. But a methodology is only sound if it is sound for every possible case, and those hundreds of alternate Books of Mormon are perfectly possible. If a crazy billionaire wanted to pay a stable of starving authors to write them, they could really be written.

What excuse could the Dales invoke, to stop their argument for authenticity from applying to any of those alternate books? And whatever the excuse might be, why would it not equally apply to the Book of Mormon itself?

Excellent approach, Physics Guy.

It is powerful and I'm honored to be the first to invite you to post this argument, just as it is, over on the Interpreter website comment section.

Frosting on the cake would be if you used your MDB screen name, identified yourself as a nevermo scientist (academic) currently working in Germany, and one concerned about the mistaken negative impression of professional scientists and engineers given by the Dales' paper.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Gadianton »

To see if I understand Physic's Guy's point let's say four of us have bike locks with the little rings with values 1-9 that run in series. We get to discussing our secret combinations one night (as people like us who fight against the Church predictably do under the cover of darkness) and all are taken aback in the amazing coincidence that each of us have a 1.+5.+7 in our combinations, in that very order, in fact. What are the odds? The odds are low enough that we suspect the manufacturer has something fishy going on. And then Lemmie walks by and starts laughing at us, pointing out that we'd all bought the new ultra paranoid version of the lock that has 150 rings.

I think PG's point is that if Coe's book is like a bike lock that has a 1.+5.+7 in it, and the Book of Mormon is like a bike lock that has a 1.+5.+7 in it, and maybe Manuscript Found has a 1 and View of the Hebrews has a 1.+7, surely there are other books out there with a 1.+5.+7, hypothetically, at least. Like Lemmie's friend in Vegas who won 4 times in a row (but we don't know how many times the friend lost) we need to know the misses as well as the hits, which is a forbidden part of the analysis except in one very restrictive way, if Coe's book mentioned it (and I believe they violated this by using his dialogue papers).

By their method, an exhaustive history of Detroit would describe New York City better than a travel brochure of New York City. Sure, the brochure has a picture of the statue of Liberty and Times square, .02 x .02, but the exhaustive history of Detroit has an endless string of .50s, (oh look, cars! traffic lights! trains! windows in buldings! a mayor! bees! people sharing ideas!) that when multiplied together, overpower the travel guide. Using their method, how likely would a book describing the Aztecs describe the Myans instead? I'm sure we could find 120 better parallels between the Aztecs and Mayans, than the Book of Mormon and Mayans.

I think PG's point is that the probability space is very large and not being considered in the calculation; before we can say how amazing a 1.+5.+7 is, we need to know how many rings on the bike lock. One way to see this is to imagine how easy it would be to find 100 or so things in common with Coe's book and another book.

Assuming this is correct, then the Dale's response would be: we can't imagine such a book that is so unique, that 120 correspondences. The likelihood of a book like that is the odds we've provided, which are beyond astronomical. QED.

You'd have to find a really sneaky way to bait the hook and lead papa D down the path.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

I think PG's point is that the probability space is very large and not being considered in the calculation; before we can say how amazing a 1.+5.+7 is, we need to know how many rings on the bike lock. One way to see this is to imagine how easy it would be to find 100 or so things in common with Coe's book and another book.

Since the actual hypothesis is apparently: "the Book of Mormon is fiction because it doesn't match statements of fact about all of Mayan history and culture," it would be easier to simply take every statement in the Book of Mormon, and see what matches and what doesn't.

The Book of Mormon has roughly 275,000 words, suppose the average verse is say, 20 words long, and the Dales' use on average 5 verses to support a correspondence, that means there are roughly 2,750 "correspondences" in the Book. Let's be generous and disallow all the "it came to passes," etc., and suppose that leaves us with only 500 correspondences.

The Dales' noted 131 of those as positive, but a fair testing of exhaustive hypotheses would have also acknowledged the remaining 369. Being as generous as possible, that's still THREE TIMES AS MANY NEGATIVE CORRESPONDENCES, as compared to the Dales' positive correspondences. The Book of Mormon odds, posteriori, would remain firmly on the fictional side.

(I don't know if I can emphasize this enough: No statistician on the planet selects ONLY positive matches for data points, artificially adds one-seventh that number of negative matches by hand, and then argues that the overwhelming majority of positive data points relative to negative proves that a positive relationship exists. No one!!!)


And then Lemmie walks by and starts laughing at us, pointing out that we'd all bought the new ultra paranoid version of the lock that has 150 rings.
No, no, no! I wouldn't laugh at you, I would sit you down and earnestly lecture you until someone desperately pulled a fire alarm or something to get me to stop. :cool:

Like Lemmie's friend in Vegas who won 4 times in a row (but we don't know how many times the friend lost) we need to know the misses as well as the hits, which is a forbidden part of the analysis except in one very restrictive way, if Coe's book mentioned it (and I believe they violated this by using his dialogue papers).
Exactly, Gadianton, EXACTLY. Well said.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _SteelHead »

I think Bill's ? most recent criticism in the comments is so telling of the flaws. If you are going to count one Mayan ruin with earth fortifications around it as a hit, you must count the 369 others without as misses as the Book of Mormon states that every city was fortified. The methodology employed is flawed beyond redemption.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

I hadn't really paid much attention to the two control books the Dales used, other than to note that they concluded those books really were fiction, but the issue came up in one of the comments I read today, so I took another look.

To my surprise, the Dales used a completely different methodology in order to reach their fictional conclusions about their control books, the Manuscript Found and View of the Hebrews. . In my opinion, we are past errors and unclear statistics; what they did with the two controls is blatantly dishonest.

As a reminder, the method for finding correspondences between Coe's book and the Book of Mormon was specified as such:
Again, it is only rational and honest to compare statements of fact which are dealt with by both books. On statements of fact where one or the other books is silent, we cannot assume either agreement or disagreement. There is no rational scientific basis for doing so because there is no evidence to support our choices.

That was the justification for ending up with 131 positive correspondences; if the statements have to match, then by definition, only "matches," or positive correspondences will be considered. The Dales stretched their rules to allow the 18 negative correspondences from outside Coe's book, but emphasize that they think it is just generosity on their part.

However, when the Dales considered Manuscript Found in Appendix 3, the rules inexplicably changed. After registering 19 "matches," by their technique above, they then considered non-matches found by comparing Coe's book and the Manuscript Found!

The first three negative correspondences:

1. earthen box, as opposed to limestone box.

2. parchment, vs. bark

3. Latin writing, Dr. Coe never mentioned Latin.

The rest of the 20 negative correspondences follow the same pattern.

So not only are differences in the control book comparison allowed to be used as negative correspondences, so also are the complete absence of items from one book while mentioned in the other allowed to be used as negative correspondences!

This is completely in opposition to the stated methodology used by the Dales in their Book of Mormon analysis. Not only do the Dales cherry-pick the data to give their favored hypotheses emphasis, they also change the rules between testing methodologies to ensure it. The Dales then have the audacity to lecture on the dishonesty of their approach:
It is a common error (deliberate or otherwise) to consider only a few pieces of evidence when examining the truth or falsity of a given hypothesis. In the extreme, this practice is called cherry-picking. In cherry-picking, evidence against one’s existing hypothesis is deliberately excluded from consideration.

This practice is, of course, dishonest. It is another common error to consider some pieces of relevant evidence as having infinite weight or having zero weight compared to other pieces of evidence. This practice is irrational and unscientific.

These practices of cherry-picking or overweighting/underweighting evidence cannot be allowed in scientific enquiry. They are neither rational nor honest. We must consider all relevant evidence if we hope to make honest, rational decisions.


Yes, Bruce and Brian, "this practice is, of course, dishonest."

You could argue that this was just the mistake of an over-eager beginner, but peer review would have caught that, right? And besides, the Dales have repeated, over and over, how experienced they are in this kind of analysis so the only thing left is dishonesty. The Dales have engaged in an extremely unethical switching of methodology between their Book of Mormon analysis and their two control groups, in order to favor their desired outcome.

Remember that Editor Wyatt stated this paper was peer-reviewed by a statistician. I am finding that impossible to believe, unless that statistician was as lacking in integrity as the Dales.

This bizarre scene just keeps getting worse.

(And, of course, assuming total independence across and between 131 statements from a single book is still the most ridiculous assumption possible.)
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