Dayton Ohio Shooting

[_Dr. Shades]

Shooter killed his own sister. Age 22.

He was age 22, or his sister was age 22?

[_Jersey Girl]

Shooter killed his own sister. Age 22.

He was age 22, or his sister was age 22?

His sister.

[_Jersey Girl]

Is there any reason to think these recent spree killings were committed by people who were mentally ill? Unless you define anyone who commits such an act as mentally ill, which you shouldn’t, I am not seeing it.

The non-mentally ill are more prone to violence than the mentally ill are. Mass shooters are always or even typically mentally ill. It seems like a red herring to bring up.

No. We're discussing it as part of the equation in mass shootings.

[_Jersey Girl]

The non-mentally ill are more prone to violence than the mentally ill are. Mass shooters are always or even typically mentally ill. It seems like a red herring to bring up.

EA are you talking about untreated or treated mentally ill persons in this?

[_EAllusion]

Is there any reason to think these recent spree killings were committed by people who were mentally ill? Unless you define anyone who commits such an act as mentally ill, which you shouldn’t, I am not seeing it.

The non-mentally ill are more prone to violence than the mentally ill are. Mass shooters are always or even typically mentally ill. It seems like a red herring to bring up.

No. We're discussing it as part of the equation in mass shootings.

Is it though? A certain % of mass shooters will be mentally ill due to the distribution of mental illness in the population. But is mental illness itself a significant driver of why they occur? I am not sure.

[_EAllusion]

The non-mentally ill are more prone to violence than the mentally ill are. Mass shooters are always or even typically mentally ill. It seems like a red herring to bring up.

EAllusion are you talking about untreated or treated mentally ill persons in this?

I am talking about the total population of mentally ill people. Estimates of their proneness to violence are lower than people who aren’t mentally ill. Mental illness increases one’s risk of being a victim of violence, though.

If you need a group to be fearful of and are only allowed to know if they are mentally ill or not, you are safer with the mentally ill group. If this is paradoxical to you, remember that mental illness harms people’s functional ability, potentially including their ability to carry out violence. At the same time the idea that classic mental health issues like schizophrenia make people violence prone is a myth.

There are of course specific mental heath issues that predispose aggression and some people’s specific personal issues with agression are exacerbated or triggered by an onset of mental illness. But this does not necessarily translate into mental illness being a driver of incidence of violence of any specific type.

[_Jersey Girl]

I think Democrats should start making the association between mass shootings and universal health care. If the root of the problem is mental health, shouldn't we be doing everything we can to get these crazy shooters the help they need before they go nuts and start killing people?

GOP: Empty thoughts and prayers

Democrats: We need universal mental health care!

They should repeat that and Moscow Mitch daily until the election.

YES. I touched on mental health here yesterday.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=52020

Mental health and gun control need to be addressed as priority. And additionally, addressing education and poverty/economy.

I think it bears mentioning that in most of these shootings, we are looking at young men whose brains have yet to fully develop (frontal lobe--executive function) when mental illness often rears it's ugly head. Schizophrenia, bi polar, depression/anxiety.

Just like my family member who suicided.

These vulnerable young men are falling through the cracks and we're giving them access to any damn weapon of their choice.

I want to add to my above just from my own perspective. When I mentioned education, I'm talking about more than one measure. Not just affordable higher education.

Education with regard to mental health. Informing and encouraging the public to seek treatment, to pay attention to signs of declining mental health in themselves, relatives, friends and co-workers.

I'd also like to see self care taught starting in early childhood and throughout the grade levels in public schools. If I can address self care in three and four year olds, anyone can. I made regular daily yoga, sensory, and relaxation measures a part of my teaching practice.

When we read a news story about elementary age students engaging in yoga, we see it as a novelty when it should be an integral part of our physical and health education, practiced on every single school day. We need comprehensive changes to our curriculum's that include such as yoga and healthy communication styles and it needs to be supported and employed throughout the school day.

[_Jersey Girl]

EAllusion are you talking about untreated or treated mentally ill persons in this?

I am talking about the total population of mentally ill people. Estimates of their proneness to violence are lower than people who aren’t mentally ill. Mental illness increases one’s risk of being a victim of violence, though.

If you need a group to be fearful of and are only allowed to know if they are mentally ill or not, you are safer with the mentally ill group. If this is paradoxical to you, remember that mental illness not infrequently harms people’s functional ability, including their ability to carry out violence. At the same time the idea that classic mental health issues like schizophrenia make people violence prone is a myth.

No, EA, it's not paradoxical to me and I hope that you know that given some of the comments I've made regarding mental illness over the years here. I'm the last person here (besides yourself) who wants to see the mentally ill population stigmatized. As I mentioned in a new thread I started yesterday about the Kennedy overdose/probable suicide, every single person in my immediate family has been treated for depression/anxiety at one time or another. I have several in my extended family who have been treated for the same illness and one who receives on going treatment for schizophrenia and two with PTSD.

I'd like to make a distinction here, though. I know you recall the proposed action to access the SSI data base to prevent gun ownership on the part of mentally ill persons. I am sure you recall my opposition to that.

A friend of mine posted about this on his Facebook a couple of years ago and I pointed out to him that Adam Lanza and James Holmes were two mentally ill diagnoses who went off their meds and abandoned therapy.

Others who were diagnosed only after the mass shootings they perpetrated.

We cannot identify mentally ill persons as a group as a danger thus prohibiting gun ownership rights, when those who are being treated abandon their treatment plan and others have yet to be diagnosed.

I don't see mental illness as a lone explanation for mass shootings. I see a society that is basically mentally ill and disconnected as partially responsible for what we see happening. I think we're becoming increasingly isolated on account of how we communicate with each other--digital communication is part of the picture.

Certainly our current leadership is a main part of that adversarial divisiveness, chaos, sense of isolation, and agitation. He's fueling hatred tweet by tweet.

Yesterday I was asking why mental health hasn't come up in the Democrat debates. I'm reasonably certain that now it will and it's about damn time.

I may have more to say about this. ^^^off the top of what's left of my head at the moment.

[_Some Schmo]

I will say for my own part that I've long thought the "mental illness" defense was a red herring, but since it seems to be a popular talking point from the gun rights crowd, it might be good political strategy to counter that argument with one for universal health care.

I mean... if they're serious about the mental health thing being the cause. How else are we going to get these poor troubled folks to seek help? Are they just going to volunteer to pay for the care they probably don't think they need?

The moral of the story: We should have universal health care, and maybe we can talk some people into it this way.

[_Maksutov]

I will say for my own part that I've long thought the "mental illness" defense was a red herring, but since it seems to be a popular talking point from the gun rights crowd, it might be good political strategy to counter that argument with one for universal health care.

I mean... if they're serious about the mental health thing being the cause. How else are we going to get these poor troubled folks to seek help? Are they just going to volunteer to pay for the care they probably don't think they need?

The moral of the story: We should have universal health care, and maybe we can talk some people into it this way.

Even if it's approached from the mental health standpoint, it requires a government intervention, which can be seen as government overreach and violation of due process if depriving someone of their property (such as guns). Those are not small considerations but we are seeing an increasing problem that represents a growing viral threat to the safety of all of us.