Darwinism

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_Chap
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _Chap »

EAllusion wrote:Ceeboo is saying that intelligent design is obvious to point of self-evident and that it is rejected because people don't like the implication that it supports the existence of God.

That intelligent design is a pseudoscientific movement grounded in bad reasoning and mendacity escapes him.


Hmm ... 'obvious'. But the important thing for Ceeboo to realise is that not everything that is 'obvious' is true. And it can often be necessary to learn a lot of hard stuff before the 'obviousness' of an idea disappears. He has not pursued significant studies in the biological sciences, so he is stuck where he is. Let's illustrate his situation from a field with which most people are fairly familiar (or think they are).

Example: It is extremely obvious that the earth is flat. I mean. just look around you. Just try walking up or down a steep hill, and you will be able to see that the earth must be, broadly speaking, a level place. People who say that the earth is spherical are obviously wrong, because if that was the case people who lived on the other side would simply fall off once they let go of some object fixed to the surface.

Now please pause for a moment and realise that people who said that were not stupid. They were just talking obvious common sense. Before space travel, the evidence that earth was spherical was indirect, and depended on such matters as careful observation during significant sea or land voyages, and having records of such astronomical events as lunar eclipses observed from places a considerable distance east-west from one another.

Once it was acknowledged that the earth was spherical, it was still obvious that it could not have any significant movement, either in rotation on its axis or in orbit round any other body. I mean, think of the obvious consequences if it did. So when Copernicus proposed that the earth had both movements, many people preferred Tycho's later system, which had the same relative movements of the bodies of the solar system (and hence the same appearances), but left the earth at rest. It was not until Newton that the physics of the solar system was set out in a form that made it possible to understand clearly and fully how we could be comfortable living on the surface of a body that is both spinning on its axis and moving rapidly in space around the sun.

It is ONLY when you have studied the physics of Newton at something like a first year level in a good college that you really understand for yourself (with no need to trust the expertise of others) the reasoning that destroys the 'obviousness' of a stationary earth.

Similarly, it is ONLY when you have made significant studies in biology that you are in a position to really understand for yourself (with no need to trust the expertise of others) the reasoning that destroys the 'obviousness' of intelligent design as Ceeboo imagines it. The vast majority of those who have pursued such studies are agreed that, at best. intelligent design is far from obvious. Ceeboo's conviction to the contrary is mainly a sign of his ignorance of the relevant topics, added to his personal tastes and religious convictions.

So why don't we leave him where he is? After all, he only does this 'Scientists Who Doubt Darwin' schtick a couple of times a year. He really is getting far more attention than he deserves.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_RockSlider
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _RockSlider »

Chap wrote:So why don't we leave him where he is? After all, he only does this 'Scientists Who Doubt Darwin' schtick a couple of times a year. He really is getting far more attention than he deserves.


If we care about the upcoming generations and hence future of American, then we must do all we can to try and educate the Ceeboo's of the world as well as counter all of the 'obvious' public testimonies of the Ceeboo's of the world to those that hear its message.

Aron Ra is a famous/infamous fighter against the State of Texas's educational system's determination to keep god in its public schools even to this day. He has been at this for many years. In June of 2015 he spoke in Canada and gives some numbers there of where America's youth are ranking against 33 other countries. America was ranking 27th of 34 in science.

If nothing else please listen to 9:27 to 11:35. I hope this will encourage you to listen to the hole of the presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeNsE5v3xfk

Ceeboo, you are helping to kill America.
_Chap
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _Chap »

RockSlider wrote:If we care about the upcoming generations and hence future of American, then we must do all we can to ... counter all of the 'obvious' public testimonies of the Ceeboo's of the world to those that hear its message.


That bit I agree with. I think I have done my bit to help with that on a number of occasions.

But as for this:

RockSlider wrote:we must do all we can to try and educate the Ceeboo's of the world


I have never seen a poster on this board who initially adopts scientifically marginal positions on Young Earth, Intelligent Design, Man-made Global Heating etc. change his or her mind as a result of argument and evidence, ever. The most that happens is that they give up and leave the board.

Sometimes they leave with a parting shot like 'They all laughed at Einstein, and one day you'll see I am right, like he was' - which tells us something about the depths of their ignorance and the non-rational basis of their immense self-assurance.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _Ceeboo »

RockSlider wrote:If we care about the upcoming generations and hence future of American, then we must do all we can to try and educate the Ceeboo's of the world as well as counter all of the 'obvious' public testimonies of the Ceeboo's of the world to those that hear its message.

(Bold mine)

You include yourself is this separate and distinctly elite group of folks that:
"Care about the upcoming generations and hence the future of America?"
"Must do all you can to try and educate people like me?"

Your view of yourself is extremely elevated.

Ceeboo, you are helping to kill America.

In addition to the spectacular arrogance and dripping irony of this statement (opinion/belief/assertion?) - your view of America and what it means to be an American is fantastically opposed to what my view is.

Given this - I don't think further exchanges will be profitable, thought provoking or beneficial to either of us - so as far as this particular topic goes, I will leave things where they are.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _Some Schmo »

Chap wrote:So why don't we leave him where he is? After all, he only does this 'Scientists Who Doubt Darwin' schtick a couple of times a year. He really is getting far more attention than he deserves.

It is a strange thing that he keeps coming back every few months to get slapped around again on this subject. Christian self-flagellation?

He couldn't possibly think he's going to talk people into believing that ID nonsense, could he?

I suppose if one can believe it in the first place, it's not much of a stretch for one to think they can convince others. This type of person is a feeler, not a thinker.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_RockSlider
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _RockSlider »

Ceeboo wrote:In addition to the spectacular arrogance and dripping irony of this statement (opinion/belief/assertion?) - your view of America and what it means to be an American is fantastically opposed to what my view is.


Yes Ceeboo I made that statement as an assertion. I also took ownership of the burden of proof by providing evidence via a presentation of an expert which itself showed several other evidence along with the 27th out of 34 in science issue which I was highlighting.

Your own answers to my questions in this thread add more evidence to my assertion. You agreed that neo-ID is pseudoscience and that it should not be taught in public schools and yet continue to declare that evolution is on the same pseudoscience level as ID, thus suggesting it should not be taught. You have remained silent on providing any example/evidence of this. You also remain silent on if you understand the Discovery Institute's hidden agenda and how you are pushing it for/along with them.

Do you see the difference here Ceeboo? In none of your replies to me in this thread have you provided any counter evidence to the evidence that I have provided along with my assertions. Instead you have provided a stream of testimonies and now ended by attacking me personally and begging out of the discussion on grounds of being offended.

Don't feel bad however, your responses are very typical of a believer cornered by evidence they cannot counter. Go ahead and shelf all of this Ceeboo. Cog-dis might well be the cause of your final response in anger here and shelving it will help at this time. A large percentage of American atheist have been where you are now. We started out as staunch defenders of the faith but in that defence also continued to shelf all of the counter evidences presented against us. We Humanist subset of atheism hold out hope that Ceeboo's personal subjective morals and his need for intellectual integrity will eventually collapse his shelf as it has done for so many of We.

eta following link

Here is a great example of one of the we: Ken Ham made me an atheist. (An intro to Paulogia.)
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_Themis
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _Themis »

Chap wrote:I have never seen a poster on this board who initially adopts scientifically marginal positions on Young Earth, Intelligent Design, Man-made Global Heating etc. change his or her mind as a result of argument and evidence, ever. The most that happens is that they give up and leave the board.


I seen a few apologists who have changed their views and don't believe anymore. I made the change. I don't think any one discussion makes the change for most, but perhaps it can make small imperceptible changes in a few that add up to real change over time. I think some like Ceeboo demonstrate very closed minds and extreme ignorance have little chance of getting there in under a century, but since a few do we should continue to try. A young earth was at one time the dominant view but now is in the minority.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Darwinism

Post by _Some Schmo »

Themis wrote:I seen a few apologists who have changed their views and don't believe anymore. I made the change. I don't think any one discussion makes the change for most, but perhaps it can make small imperceptible changes in a few that add up to real change over time.

Wait... what you're describing is a personal evolution. I thought all those ID arguments were poofed into existence and don't change much.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
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