MDB Bible Study

[_Chap]

Thanks for joining the Bible study.

Please! Enough with the smarm!

Nobody has 'joined the Bible study' They are just commenting on the strange stuff you post.

[_Ceeboo]

I'm not talking about the Bible in Bible study - I said I was going to try to post about what's in the Bible in this thread but here I go, down a rabbit hole. Thanks for that honor

Look Ceebs, if you asked a Jew what they thought, they'd tell you that Isaiah 53 isn't speaking of Jesus but of Isreal.

Other than Messianic Jews (Jews who have accepted Jesus as Messiah) Religious Jews are left with very little choice but to make this claim. If Jesus wasn't the Messiah, there will never be a Messiah as he had to come before the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. In addition, the very reason that religious Jews have been practicing "Rabbinic Judaism" since the destruction of the Temple in 70AD is because they lost the vehicle by which they practiced their religion ("sacrificial system") - Not having a Temple is the only reason that the Jewish Rabbi's needed to write the Talmud - Which has now made the Jewish religion something very different than it was.

Having said that, with great love and respect to my Jewish neighbors, the Isaiah passage is clearly speaking of Jesus - no question about it.

And if one approaches it with that predetermined view,not would read that way you especially if you start in chapter 52 where it starts specifically telling the captive Israelites to remain clean and flee their captivity. The servant in those passages that is abused and looked down on by the mighty is meant to be captive Israel.

Yes, Israel is being spoken of - No doubt. Likewise, Jesus is being spoken of as well - No doubt.

Personally, I see it as a mirror of your own assumptions being reflected back at you. Is it historically justifiable? I don't think so.

I appreciate your take.

Personally, I think it's crystal clear and to deny it reflects something about those doing the denying.

[Guest]

It's their book of scripture written about them. It's not that they have no other choice. It's that Christian reinterpreted it to fit their wants. The author of Deutro-Isaiah almost certainly wasn't picturing the events of the New Testament when they composed it.

But for the sake of having your discussion as you care to frame it, here's verse 4:

People despised and avoided him, a man of pains, well acquainted with illness. Like someone from whom people turn their faces, he was despised; we did not value him.

So, perfect match for the New Testament? I thought one of the he complaints of Jesus was he was someone who wined and dined with all kinds of people, was charismatic, gained a following, thousands came to hear him speak. When was he sick in the gospels? How is it a match except by reading into it a belief about the atonement and ignoring what doesn't fit?

[_Ceeboo]

Thanks for joining the Bible study.

Please! Enough with the smarm!

Nobody has 'joined the Bible study' They are just commenting on the strange stuff you post.

Proverbs 20:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
It is honorable for a man to stop striving,
Since any fool can start a quarrel.

[_Lemmie]

I'm not talking about the Bible in Bible study

Not sure what THAT means....

Look Ceebs, if you asked a Jew what they thought, they'd tell you that Isaiah 53 isn't speaking of Jesus but of Isreal.

Having said that, with great love and respect to my Jewish neighbors, the Isaiah passage is clearly speaking of Jesus - no question about it.

Yes, Israel is being spoken of - No doubt. Likewise, Jesus is being spoken of as well - No doubt.

Both? Come on.

Personally, I see it as a mirror of your own assumptions being reflected back at you. Is it historically justifiable? I don't think so.

...Personally, I think it's crystal clear and to deny it reflects something about those doing the denying.

And to think it's crystal clear reflects on those who think it's crystal clear....

Come on, ceeboo. This argument is getting nonsensical.

Since any fool can start a quarrel...

You're the OP.

[_Ceeboo]

How you framed them is the point of this Bible study.

Yes, you are right - sorry. What I meant was to forget everything I wrote about the passages and just look at scripture: (I wasn't clear)

Here are two - Isaiah and Psalm - You don't think these are about Jesus and crucifixion?

Isaiah 53 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Sin-Bearing Messiah
53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no [a]form or [b]comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no [c]beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and [d]rejected by men,
A Man of [e]sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.


Psalm 22 - A psalm of David (1,000BC)

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish? 2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, but I find no rest. 3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the one Israel praises. 4 In you our ancestors put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. 5 To you they cried out and were saved; in you they trusted and were not put to shame. 6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. 8 “He trusts in the LORD,” they say, “let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.” 9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast. 10 From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God. 11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. 12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. 13 Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me. 15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. 17 All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment. 19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen. 22 I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you. 23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! 24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help. 25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows. 26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise him— may your hearts live forever! 27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, 28 for dominion belongs to the LORDand he rules over the nations. 29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive. 30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. 31 They will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!

[_Ceeboo]

You're the OP.

Lemmie - I was really trying to be gracious, kind and thoughtful with you. I wrote out a few fairly lengthy replies to you - Not to convince you of anything, but because you asked me questions and I tried to answer them from my view, as a believer.

And this is now the second eye roll yo have given me in the thread. Why?

[_Chap]

it's crystal clear and to deny it reflects something about those doing the denying.

Follow the Prophet.

He knows the wa-ay!

Seriously Ceeboob, hows about giving us some really useful advice? Where's the best place to get a pizza in downtown Bogota?

[_Lemmie]

You're the OP.

Lemmie - I was really trying to be gracious, kind and thoughtful with you. I wrote out a few fairly lengthy replies to you - Not to convince you of anything, but because you asked me questions and I tried to answer them from my view, as a believer.

And this is now the second eye roll yo have given me in the thread. Why?

Oh sorry, I thought I was being perfectly clear- the eyerolls were not personal, they were for content that is not only clearly not an answer to a question, but that also contains a pejorative element. For example:

Personally, I think it's crystal clear and to deny it reflects something about those doing the denying.

I know you didn't mean that to personally insult the person you were responding to, even though it seemed rude.

I was really trying to be gracious, kind and thoughtful with you

hmm. Maybe you don't understand how your statements, like the one I quoted, come across.

[_honorentheos]

Ceebs, let's try changing roles for a moment. Here's a famous passage in the New Testament that Mormons understand to be a clear reference to temple ordinances:

1 Corinthians 15:29

Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

To the Mormon this is pretty clear and unambiguous as to supporting the temple ordinances they perform. I'm guessing you have heard this already and have what you understand to be what Paul was really going on about. It's like that for the Jews and your reading Jesus into their scripture. The original authors' aren't talking about Jesus.