MDB Bible Study

[_honorentheos]

Here's another one:

1 Corinthians 15:40-43 (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

To the Mormon, these are clearly referencing the three degrees of glory to which people will be resurrected. Plain as day, why don't Christians see this?

[_huckelberry]

Honorentheos, the kind of forshadowing which ceebo is referring to is an old interpretive tradition. I do not think it requires or has asked for the original authors to know about or understand what their words foreshadow. It would be entirely reasonable to think Isaiah thought the suffering servant was Israel. All, or many, of his readers may have thought the same. It would be a later circumstance when further possible meaning emerge which were hidden before. Jesus revealed meaning that the original writer was unaware of.

If one is thinking that the words were inspired by God than it is easy to think God knew and intended a larger meaning than would have been understood in Isaiah's time. If one is not thinking of divine inspiration it can still be seen that the words and ideas they contain can find new life with new related dimension when later circumstances arise. Israel as suffering servant can be a stepping stone to the meaning of Jesus as suffering servant.

[_honorentheos]

huckelberry, I won't disagree in part. I've turned many a literary piece into a commentary on far ranging topics and don't find it particularly controversial to claim such is not only possible but quite likely to occur with any text given a creative reader with intent.

BUT - Jesus isn't in Isaiah unless you want to find Jesus there. He isn't in Psalms unless you are looking for something there. One doesn't learn about Jesus from those texts like one learns about Moses from Exodus or Jesus from Mark or the other gospels. Finding Jesus in the Old Testament is an exercise in interpretive literature reading. Not in discovering the intended message of the original author.

[_huckelberry]

huckelberry, I won't disagree in part. I've turned many a literary piece into a commentary on far ranging topics and don't find it particularly controversial to claim such is not only possible but quite likely to occur with any text given a creative reader with intent.

BUT - Jesus isn't in Isaiah unless you want to find Jesus there. He isn't in Psalms unless you are looking for something there. One doesn't learn about Jesus from those texts like one learns about Moses from Exodus or Jesus from Mark or the other gospels. Finding Jesus in the Old Testament is an exercise in interpretive literature reading. Not in discovering the intended message of the original author.

Honorentheos, I find I agree with your comments here. I was expecting I may have to add that finding foreshadowing of Jesus is not strong evidence about Jesus divinity or evidence of what he did. For Jesus I think the gospels with their limitations are the best information we have.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Honorentheos, I find I agree with your comments here. I was expecting I may have to add that finding foreshadowing of Jesus is not strong evidence about Jesus divinity or evidence of what he did. For Jesus I think the gospels with their limitations are the best information we have.

I would say it's more along the lines of retconning Jesus into the Biblical narrative.

- Doc

[_Jersey Girl]

Jesus completely removes all sin (The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world) - Meaning, if anyone accepts this free gift of enormous and loving Grace, their sins are completely removed (taken away). It is through the righteousness and purity of Jesus that we are made right standing with God. Other than believing and receiving, we do nothing. That is to say that this removal of sin (not reparation as seen in the Old Testament) is done by the Grace of God 100%. In short, this is the Good News that was proclaimed all over the New Testament and it the very same Good News that is being proclaimed today.

As far as confession and seeking forgiveness of sin goes: As believers, we have already been purchased - in full - at the cross - so there is no need to confess or to seek forgiveness of sin (We hide under the enormous Glory of the Savior and because Jesus has stood in our place, we are at peace with God and made right standing with God)

Salvation does not come by works - we do nothing - there isn't anything we can do to be worthy in the eyes of an unbelievably Powerful, Righteous and Holy God - The bar is way, way too high. Once we accept that we are broken (we own sin against God and we recognize that we are not in a position of peace with God) we go to the cross and surrender. This, and only this, is when we are set free. Our chains are broken. Our hearts and minds are literally changed (again, this isn't by us - it is by the Glory of God/Holy Spirit.) - This isn't "a better you" it is a complete transformation of you that is a mind-blowing experience. It is exactly what Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus (Who, like many of us, struggle to understand/comprehend this spiritual Truth)

Ceeboo, I think most of us are familiar with that explanation and have heard it many times. I know I have. No offense intended, but it makes no more sense to me upon repetition than the first time anyone explained it to me. It seems like an unnecessarily convoluted plan to me. I think it seems mainly designed to make people feel dependent on organized religion in order to provide a livelihood for professional clergy who administer ordinances and ceremonies they would have us believe are necessary for our salvation and good standing with God.

Gunnar,

Ceeboo mentioned not one word about organized religion or professional clergy. Not one word. He is talking about a one:one relationship with God. No middleman nor organized religion needed.

Take another look at what he wrote, exactly as he wrote it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Forgiveness (a bandage or covering) is an Old Testament thing - That's why they had to keep sacrificing animals over and over and over.

Isn't that why the sacrament is taken, over and over?

No.

1 Corinthians 11 KJV

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

[_Gunnar]

Gunnar,

Ceeboo mentioned not one word about organized religion or professional clergy. Not one word. He is talking about a one:one relationship with God. No middleman nor organized religion needed.

Take another look at what he wrote, exactly as he wrote it.

Sorry, I was under the impression that Ceeboo regularly attends church, and believes in the importance of baptism and taking the sacrament on a regular basis. Doesn't this imply being somehow involved with some kind of organized religious activity or denomination or intermediary? If he does none of these things, then I apologize for inferring that he subscribes to or is involved in any kind of organized religion.

[_Jersey Girl]

Gunnar,

Ceeboo mentioned not one word about organized religion or professional clergy. Not one word. He is talking about a one:one relationship with God. No middleman nor organized religion needed.

Take another look at what he wrote, exactly as he wrote it.

Sorry, I was under the impression that Ceeboo regularly attends church, and believes in the importance of baptism and taking the sacrament on a regular basis. Doesn't this imply being somehow involved with some kind of organized religious activity or denomination or intermediary? If he does none of these things, then I apologize for inferring that he subscribes to or is involved in any kind of organized religion.

I don't really think it wise to assume anything about Ceeboo or any other believer we have posting here. We're all human, we each have our individual journey, experiences, and opinions. I no longer attend church and I could have written the same piece as he did. There are a great many Christians who are essentially repulsed by organized religion as we know it. I'm one of them.

The only intermediary needed in Christianity is Jesus.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

You either believe Jesus or you don't. It's that simple.

[_honorentheos]

Technically it comes down to if one believes the compilers of the stories about Jesus and what they claim he said, but it's a reasonable point. Mormon views and practices don't translate over to mainstream Christianity one-for-one in most of it's forms. At the same time there's a certain over simplification of LDS beliefs that occurs when one has been out a while and isn't taking it seriously.