huckelberry wrote:Honorentheos, I find I agree with your comments here. I was expecting I may have to add that finding foreshadowing of Jesus is not strong evidence about Jesus divinity or evidence of what he did. For Jesus I think the gospels with their limitations are the best information we have.
I would say it's more along the lines of retconning Jesus into the Biblical narrative.
Another thing that I want to add that I think is interesting - from my own reading/understanding of the Bible (Old Testament and New Testament as one) is the consistent theme of "God with us"
Genesis - The story of God walking in the Garden with Adam and Eve = God with us. Shortly after the exodus - Tabernacle = God with us Solomon's Temple = God with us Jesus enters his own creation = God with us God ascends and sends Holy Spirit to dwell inside of us = God with us End times, sky cracks open - Jesus returns and will be King of Kings = God with us Heaven - dwelling for eternity with the Creator =God with us
in my opinion - Just something I find interesting.
Gunnar wrote:Sorry, I was under the impression that Ceeboo regularly attends church, and believes in the importance of baptism and taking the sacrament on a regular basis. Doesn't this imply being somehow involved with some kind of organized religious activity or denomination or intermediary? If he does none of these things, then I apologize for inferring that he subscribes to or is involved in any kind of organized religion.
That was my understanding as well, further supported by his (ceeboo’s) comment about the role of the sacrament in his congregation, as well as the frequency of the rite.
Ceeboo wrote:Genesis - The story of God walking in the Garden with Adam and Eve = God with us.
Um, the theme of that story is that God is the kind of loving parent who ... throws his kids out onto the street if they break his rules about eating the wrong kind of fruit.
Oh yes, then he hires armed security to make sure the kids can't get back into his gated community. Really a caring parent.
(etc.)
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
It seems to me it would be more accurate to say the Bible is a multi-century exposition on how a people who view themselves as God's chosen still suffer and appear abandoned. Much of the Old Testament deals with this. The New Testament is very much a collection of various authors sharing legends and stories that they use to then say to the reader, "God is coming, be vigilant and you will be vindicated for your faith."
Job is the most honest of these, especially it's parts that are the oldest. The author of Job understood that whatever God does is God's ways which are not the ways of we mortals so if bad things happen don't blame God. It's just the way things are.
It's more modern prosperity gospel BS that sells the whole, "Why hope for pie someday in the sky when God can give you ham were I am if you believe..." Yeah. Those people are not students of the scripture. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Ceeboo wrote:Genesis - The story of God walking in the Garden with Adam and Eve = God with us.
Um, the theme of that story is that God is the kind of loving parent who ... throws his kids out onto the street if they break his rules about eating the wrong kind of fruit.
Oh yes, then he hires armed security to make sure the kids can't get back into his gated community. Really a caring parent.
(etc.)
Chap, is this the reading of the story you developed back in your days as true Bible thumper or was it developed after your naturalist rebirth?
I mean a real question as your reading strikes me as a bit perverse. I realize you may see me a perversely naïve about Bible stories. I do read the story as God making the most kindly action for the situation. I can see the story could be read as a thing to frighten youth. Show what a devouring ogre god is.
Gunnar wrote: Sorry, I was under the impression that Ceeboo regularly attends church, and believes in the importance of baptism and taking the sacrament on a regular basis. Doesn't this imply being somehow involved with some kind of organized religious activity or denomination or intermediary? If he does none of these things, then I apologize for inferring that he subscribes to or is involved in any kind of organized religion.
Ceeboo wrote:Genesis - The story of God walking in the Garden with Adam and Eve = God with us.
Um, the theme of that story is that God is the kind of loving parent who ... throws his kids out onto the street if they break his rules about eating the wrong kind of fruit.
Oh yes, then he hires armed security to make sure the kids can't get back into his gated community. Really a caring parent.
(etc.)
huckelberry:
Chap, is this the reading of the story you developed back in your days as true Bible thumper or was it developed after your naturalist rebirth?
I mean a real question as your reading strikes me as a bit perverse. I realize you may see me a perversely naïve about Bible stories. I do read the story as God making the most kindly action for the situation. I can see the story could be read as a thing to frighten youth. Show what a devouring ogre god is.
I know you asked chap, so my apologies for intruding, but if you don’t mind another response to me it is just too illogical. It’s as though the story was started, and then when the teller realized something was not making sense, a new rationale had to be created for that conflict, and then again for another conflict, and another. After a while, the layers of rationalizing are just too much, and it begins to look silly, which is the context in which I read chap’s post.
Ceeboo wrote:Genesis - The story of God walking in the Garden with Adam and Eve = God with us.
Um, the theme of that story is that God is the kind of loving parent who ... throws his kids out onto the street if they break his rules about eating the wrong kind of fruit.
Oh yes, then he hires armed security to make sure the kids can't get back into his gated community. Really a caring parent.
(etc.)
I appreciate your perspective.
In my mind, the theme of the story centers in and around the unwillingness of Adam and Eve to acknowledge and accept the supreme authority of Almighty God. This rejection is what caused Adam and Eve to be separated from God.
The rejection of God and the rejection of God's authority can been seen throughout scripture. It can also be clearly seen today.
In addition to God's supreme authority, we are all very fortunate that God also has enormous patience, love and Grace. To understand and/or consider such a thing can often be the first step in acknowledging that we are living a life separated from God. The next step (which is much much harder for many) is to accept the reasons why we are living a life separated from our very creator, God.
Gunnar wrote:Sorry, I was under the impression that Ceeboo regularly attends church, and believes in the importance of baptism and taking the sacrament on a regular basis. Doesn't this imply being somehow involved with some kind of organized religious activity or denomination or intermediary? If he does none of these things, then I apologize for inferring that he subscribes to or is involved in any kind of organized religion.
That was my understanding as well, further supported by his (ceeboo’s) comment about the role of the sacrament in his congregation, as well as the frequency of the rite.
Oh. This here?
In most (all?) Bible based Christian churches, the sacrament (small s) is simply done to remember Jesus and the Last Supper. In my church, we do this about once a month. This has nothing to do with forgiving sin and/or salvation.
The Roman Catholic church has an entirely different view of this and it's called the "Holy Eucharist"
We do this once a month in my church as well. As Ceeboo states it has nothing to do with forgiving sin and/or salvation. It's done in remembrance.
I don't attend church.
Ceeboo offers this criticism about organized religion. I have leveled criticism against organized religion as well.
You have completely left the Bible - Organized religion is a huge problem and it is one of the biggest reasons that people become enslaved, placed in bondage and experience the enormous weariness and unworthiness that religions place upon us. It replaces the free gift of Grace and all the work that has already been done in full (By Jesus at the cross) with laundry lists of things that you must do in order to earn your way back to him. It cannot be done - It has already been done by the Only One who could have done it.
There's no clear indication in these posts that Ceebs does or does/not attend church, etc. I don't think we should assume what is someone's private business based on public posts.
Doing so tends to foster stereotyping. Can't count the number of times I've posted on these boards about religion or in defense of a single LDS only to have folks assume that I was LDS and also attacked me as LDS when I was not. I've got 20 years of that kind of thing under my belt by now.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb