MDB Bible Study

[_huckelberry]

Ceebo, I have a thought your description of being born again. I have repect for your description but I wonder if you make it sound to automatic and all at once. Paul sometimes sounds like that but oddly he also at other times describes a change that we do that takes place over time. In Pauls view people can start the change and then be weak and plodding. Paul instructs people to be patient with those who are slower.

I think that anyobservation of people around us and people in history shows that we are all much slower in sanctification than we would like. I can remember the time of renewal when I turn and feel new take on a new direction, new goals and sense a new foundations. Years go by and I know I am slower weaker than my hope. Paul speaks of suffering for other to be something we do over years to become more like what we were reborn to be. I do not believe that for any Christian this process is complete in this life. Jesus gives us a spiritual foundation which can continue past death and joining with others can complete what no human does in this life.

descriptions of sudden transformation have become fairly widespread in the past hundred or so years. for the previous 1900 years seeing a long change was the usual Christian expection. It was also important to see that lifelong change as taking place with other people.

[_honorentheos]

Who makes rules for God? I am puzzled as to how to relate to your rule question(a preceding post) which seems to fit government officials or administrators. Since when is God an administrator?

Exactly. Who makes rules that God abides by in a consistent way? No one, including God apparently. As he told Job, our ways aren't his, and it's foolishness to try and draw conclusions based on the consequences. Job could be just and good, and bad things happen...not for a good reason but because. That eliminated Lawful Good. But he seems hung up on obedience by human beings. To obey is better than to sacrifice...so God is using the order of law to his advantage. Sounds like Lawful Evil.

As to whether or not the devil can be saved, I don't think talking about Satan is worth much time period. The evil in the world is in the hearts and minds of humanity. We would do best to focus on that.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey huck

Ceebo, I have a thought your description of being born again. I have repect for your description but I wonder if you make it sound to automatic and all at once.

Being born (no matter if we are talking about a physical birth or a spiritual birth) is an event that takes place rather than a process that happens over years/decades.. In both cases, the one that has been born is not responsible for being born - nor did one choose to be born.

Paul sometimes sounds like that but oddly he also at other times describes a change that we do that takes place over time.

Paul is a very good example - He played no part in his event of being spiritually born - All he was doing was riding a horse when God chose him to be born of the spirit. This was obviously an event (not a scope of years or decades) that radically changes Paul's heart and mind.

When Paul describes change over time, he is not talking about the born again event. The change over time process that Paul describes is the lifelong challenges, understanding and growth that is a part of this new life - A christian life. It is not the event of being born. Just like the physical birth of a baby is the event that begins years and decades of growth, understanding and maturity - So does a spiritual birth mark the beginning of a much longer process where (by the power of the Holy Spirit) one learns, matures, gains wisdom and grows in the things of God (This, sometimes called sanctification, is a once-forever separation of believers unto God)

In Pauls view people can start the change and then be weak and plodding. Paul instructs people to be patient with those who are slower.

With respect, this is not my understanding. "People can not start the change" (Just like a newborn baby can not start the birth) The spiritual birth is 100% of God and by God. Paul's instructions of being patient is about the understanding that once born (meaning after this event), growth, understanding and sanctification can be a very different experience for many - In other words, not all infants will progress at the same rates/speeds but they indeed are all infants as they have indeed been born again by the power of God.

I think that anyobservation of people around us and people in history shows that we are all much slower in sanctification than we would like. I can remember the time of renewal when I turn and feel new take on a new direction, new goals and sense a new foundations. Years go by and I know I am slower weaker than my hope. Paul speaks of suffering for other to be something we do over years to become more like what we were reborn to be.

Sanctification is a lifelong process. To put it in simple form - It is a lifelong journey that involves understand and using this new heart and new mind to become more and more like Jesus. This does not mean that Christians don't face challenges along the way , or have struggles - it means that the work being done is being done by the Holy Spirit to guide us, prompt us and point us in certain directions of holiness, grace, compassion and humility.

I do not believe that for any Christian this process is complete in this life.

I agree. The process will only be complete when our life on earth is completed and then we are glorified (again, not by anything we do, or have earned, or take part in) Just like being born of the spirit is done by the Power of Almighty God - So is glorification done, by the power of Almighty God.

Jesus gives us a spiritual foundation which can continue past death and joining with others can complete what no human does in this life.

No, this is not my understanding. Human beings do not do it in the Kingdom either (we can't). It is the Lord of lords, King of Kings, Creator of all things that will shower His children with His abundant Grace that will bring forth glorification.

descriptions of sudden transformation have become fairly widespread in the past hundred or so years. for the previous 1900 years seeing a long change was the usual Christian expection. It was also important to see that lifelong change as taking place with other people.

Being born of the spirit (sometimes called justification) is a sudden and particular event.
The lifelong change/process (sometimes called sanctification) is the Christian life played out as well follow Jesus.
When Christians return to their Lord (earthly life has ended) Glorification takes place.

Thanks for the back and forth. I really enjoy it!

[_Lemmie]

Who makes rules for God? I am puzzled as to how to relate to your rule question(a preceding post) which seems to fit government officials or administrators. Since when is God an administrator?

Exactly. Who makes rules that God abides by in a consistent way? No one, including God apparently. As he told Job, our ways aren't his, and it's foolishness to try and draw conclusions based on the consequences. Job could be just and good, and bad things happen...not for a good reason but because. That eliminated Lawful Good. But he seems hung up on obedience by human beings. To obey is better than to sacrifice...so God is using the order of law to his advantage. Sounds like Lawful Evil.

As to whether or not the devil can be saved, I don't think talking about Satan is worth much time period. The evil in the world is in the hearts and minds of humanity. We would do best to focus on that.

Yes. Reminds me of what Hamlet said:

For use almost can change the stamp of nature,
And master the devil, or throw him out.”

[_Some Schmo]

Lawful evil sounds like it captures the God of the Bible who has rules that tell Satan and the angels they were made to be whatever they are and get to spend eternity hating humanity because Father apparently favors them...yeah. Lawful evil is my pick.

I'd have to go with True Neutral:

True Neutral. Neutral characters are hard to play because they lack defining moral values. This is essentially a person who evaluates each situation independently and makes a decision, but the criteria might be different in each different situation.

This would be why the god character seems so capricious.

[_honorentheos]

I thought about that, too. My hesitation is twofold. First, God really does seem to care about rules. He has rituals to be followed, he doesn't like people doing things he didn't intend, etc. It's difficult to view someone with a rulebook people fight over as neutral rather than lawful, meaning "for order and rules" more than it means being just.

I do think an argument could be made God isn't aligned with good or evil as traditionally defined. My tilting towards evil is influenced by how people perceive the outcomes and, given they can seem capricious I went with evil as it appears God like vrules that allow him to force adoration and worship or results in eternal torment. I think a true neutral wouldn't assign people to an afterlife fate but instead just let the lights go out.

[_subgenius]

...an afterlife fate but instead just let the lights go out.

Your post raises some interesting points, but this one perhaps needs some clarification.
What is your foundation for this "fate(s)". I mean i get the whole mythology of heaven or hell etc, but what does God note as our afterlife options?
And is it not more reasonable to assume that He prefers, perhaps exclusively, to reward/punish the living?

[_honorentheos]

Luke 16, Jesus recounts the following-

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores

21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.

23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

[_subgenius]

Luke 16:23 is the gemstone here. I don't see the foundation for the above mentioned God's "afterlife fate" here, but it does contain plenty of material for discussion.

[_Some Schmo]

I thought about that, too. My hesitation is twofold. First, God really does seem to care about rules. He has rituals to be followed, he doesn't like people doing things he didn't intend, etc. It's difficult to view someone with a rulebook people fight over as neutral rather than lawful, meaning "for order and rules" more than it means being just.

I do think an argument could be made God isn't aligned with good or evil as traditionally defined. My tilting towards evil is influenced by how people perceive the outcomes and, given they can seem capricious I went with evil as it appears God like vrules that allow him to force adoration and worship or results in eternal torment. I think a true neutral wouldn't assign people to an afterlife fate but instead just let the lights go out.

Your case is good, but I still disagree. I think the difference is I'm thinking of god as a character, and how he reacts in a variety of situations, whereas you're talking about what he seems to impose on his subjects as a god.

If he really is the creator of all things, then he created all situations, and by nature, must be completely neutral. If he tips one way or the other, he's got to correct the other way to maintain balance. For a "creator of all things" god, it's got to be a zero sum game between good and evil.

So, if we look at his actions in isolation, they might look like they're really benevolent or really evil because we don't see why he's tipping the scales one way or the other. Isn't that what the Job story is getting at? You don't see everything I see; I have my reasons.