MDB Bible Study

[_honorentheos]

Subbie - You asked two things: What does God have to say about after life conditions and does God prefer to punish the living?

Luke 16 is Jesus talking, so can check off the hypothetical box that says if we play this game it's god talking. It describes two conditions: being taken by the angels to rest with Abraham or being tormented in Hades. And it tells us God seems to view afterlife punishment for wickedness in life as the norm. Lazarus lived a crap life but gets rewarded for eternity. The rich man lives a life of abundance and plenty but also not in line with Gods rules and he spends eternity in torment.

What's to discuss?

[_honorentheos]

I thought about that, too. My hesitation is twofold. First, God really does seem to care about rules. He has rituals to be followed, he doesn't like people doing things he didn't intend, etc. It's difficult to view someone with a rulebook people fight over as neutral rather than lawful, meaning "for order and rules" more than it means being just.

I do think an argument could be made God isn't aligned with good or evil as traditionally defined. My tilting towards evil is influenced by how people perceive the outcomes and, given they can seem capricious I went with evil as it appears God like vrules that allow him to force adoration and worship or results in eternal torment. I think a true neutral wouldn't assign people to an afterlife fate but instead just let the lights go out.

Your case is good, but I still disagree. I think the difference is I'm thinking of god as a character, and how he reacts in a variety of situations, whereas you're talking about what he seems to impose on his subjects as a god.

If he really is the creator of all things, then he created all situations, and by nature, must be completely neutral. If he tips one way or the other, he's got to correct the other way to maintain balance. For a "creator of all things" god, it's got to be a zero sum game between good and evil.

So, if we look at his actions in isolation, they might look like they're really benevolent or really evil because we don't see why he's tipping the scales one way or the other. Isn't that what the Job story is getting at? You don't see everything I see; I have my reasons.

I could possibly be persuaded on the good/evil axis that God is neutral headed on the evidence of the Bible. But I can't on the lawful/chaotic axis. He likes rules. Arguing over them is kinda his thing. Even in this thread we see modern born again types telling people how things ought to be done, that certain things are off limits for certain beings created by God, etz. And those are the folks who are quick to say it's all about one big rule - accept Christ and be born again - and not the more theologically inclined legalistic religious types. Now, it seems to me the rules are a tool that gives God control and power over people so he isn't binding himself to them, either. And it isn't about balance.bits about his being a jealous God. I'm sticking with lawful. And it still seems more like lawful evil to me than lawful neutral.

[_Some Schmo]

I could possibly be persuaded on the good/evil axis that God is neutral headed on the evidence of the Bible. But I can't on the lawful/chaotic axis. He likes rules. Arguing over them is kinda his thing. Even in this thread we see modern born again types telling people how things ought to be done, that certain things are off limits for certain beings created by God, etz. And those are the folks who are quick to say it's all about one big rule - accept Christ and be born again - and not the more theologically inclined legalistic religious types. Now, it seems to me the rules are a tool that gives God control and power over people so he isn't binding himself to them, either. And it isn't about balance.bits about his being a jealous God. I'm sticking with lawful. And it still seems more like lawful evil to me than lawful neutral.

But all of this description refers to the beliefs and actions of his followers, not him. You're describing the mob's character, not his. It's not like he's telling them to behave this way. This is their interpretation. They're the ones nuts over the supposed rules.

He just sends them cryptic messages depending on whatever the weather is in his head, and the followers are left trying to interpret what he meant. And they end up creating crazy rules, trying to nail it down, because they keep getting mixed messages and don't really know what the “F” he means most of the time.

[Alf'Omega]

I guess the other thing to say is that while this god character may well use law to his advantage, there's little doubt he uses chaos in the same measure.

ETA: The especially fun thing about this conversation is that alignment is the least important character attribute in DnD these days. It affects nothing. hehe

[_huckelberry]

Who makes rules for God? I am puzzled as to how to relate to your rule question(a preceding post) which seems to fit government officials or administrators. Since when is God an administrator?

Exactly. Who makes rules that God abides by in a consistent way? No one, including God apparently. As he told Job, our ways aren't his, and it's foolishness to try and draw conclusions based on the consequences. Job could be just and good, and bad things happen...not for a good reason but because. That eliminated Lawful Good. But he seems hung up on obedience by human beings. To obey is better than to sacrifice...so God is using the order of law to his advantage. Sounds like Lawful Evil.

As to whether or not the devil can be saved, I don't think talking about Satan is worth much time period. The evil in the world is in the hearts and minds of humanity. We would do best to focus on that.

I agree the subject of satans salvation is empty.

I do find your image of Gods relationship to law very alien to my mind. It is far from how I understand God.

Matthew 12:7 ESV / And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.

I understand the righteousness God desires to be our making real our responsibilities to our neighbors and ourselves. Law is a guide and pointer not an end in itself.

I was not immediately remembering the reference for your phrase " to obey is better than sacrifice." Google helped referring me to Samuel with the matter of Saul saving Agag and the best sheep. I was referred to a web sight proposing 60 Bible verses supporting this idea. There was only 1 Samuel 15:21 actually saying this. I copied the Matthew quote above from the list. I understood the rest to be speaking of the righteousness of real relationships not just blind obedience to arbitrary commands.

The Samuel passage is not about arbitrary command. One can easily be put off by the story but Samuel is objecting that Saul is putting himself on a high horse, He is happy to kill all the common people of the enemy group but keeps the king. The story as a whole sees this as a beginning of Saul's turn towards self concern away from his proper role as king.(responsibility for his people)

[_canpakes]

Sanctification is a lifelong process. To put it in simple form - It is a lifelong journey that involves understand and using this new heart and new mind to become more and more like Jesus. This does not mean that Christians don't face challenges along the way , or have struggles - it means that the work being done is being done by the Holy Spirit to guide us, prompt us and point us in certain directions of holiness, grace, compassion and humility.

I do not believe that for any Christian this process is complete in this life.

I agree. The process will only be complete when our life on earth is completed and then we are glorified (again, not by anything we do, or have earned, or take part in) Just like being born of the spirit is done by the Power of Almighty God - So is glorification done, by the power of Almighty God.

Ceeboo, two questions for you -

What, in practical terms, does sanctification entail or mean for you as regards daily living?

Is working toward sanctification - as a human being in present time - an extension of what amounts to (excuse the oversimplification) the application of the so-called Golden Rule..?

[_Some Schmo]

What's the attribute one adds to the d20 when making a roll against Satan again?

Depends on your class, unless you're talking about a saving throw...

I think I'd want fire resistance for that encounter.

[_Some Schmo]

What, in practical terms, does sanctification entail or mean for you as regards daily living?

My understanding is it can mean one of two things, depending on context:

- The creation and packaging of instant decaffeinated coffee
- The consuming of instant decaffeinated coffee

In both cases, it can be a very bitter experience. At the very least, I'd recommend upgrading to a Folgersfication or a Starbusksfication.

[Guest]

I guess the other thing to say is that while this god character may well use law to his advantage, there's little doubt he uses chaos in the same measure.

This gets at what Cam brought up which I think leaves a divide between the observable universe and the Judeo-Christian God.

If we assume the Judeo-Christian God is a being in our fantasy world that is, "MDB Bible Study", aren't we compelled to define God by what his acolytes have said over the years as captured in the Christian Bible? So whether or not it's the adherents or God making all the fuse about the rules, it's still the same.

OTOH, we have the universe as we observe it to be. And THAT is chaotic if one is looking for anthropomorphic order like was the cause of science and religion from the Renaissance up to the mid-20th C. I think the Mormon idea is outdated that science revealing the mysteries of how the universe works is in line with helping humankind come to understand the mechanisms by which God operates. That was a very Newtonian view of the universe that may have made sense in Smith's time but absolutely doesn't in modern/post-modern understanding.

Now, I agree with you that if we want to define God as a being who has ownership and responsibility for how the universe appears to be that such a being must be more in favor of chaos than law, though said being also seems to have rules of a sort: Might makes right but don't think that means size matters, don't get too comfortable because change is inevitable and almost certainly going to be bad for those who think they are on top, nobody is special least of all the being that thinks they are. "Rules" may be too strong a word, maybe more like truism that outline for us that the longer time goes on in one direction the probability increases that something will come along and “F” that up until that probability eventually reaches 1. But when it reaches 1 is not on a predictable timescale, either.

I just don't think there is a good way to force the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible into also being in charge of it all. He seems more like a lower tier government official, or hell let's say staff in charge of a department, who enjoys a certain degree of authority they throw around but whose influence doesn't extend past those unfortunate enough to get stuck having to deal with them for reasons. Like a head of the DMV or a permitting counter at a City.

ETA: The especially fun thing about this conversation is that alignment is the least important character attribute in DnD these days. It affects nothing. hehe

Yeah. I feel that that has some sort of meta comment attached to it, too...

[_honorentheos]

What's the attribute one adds to the d20 when making a roll against Satan again?

Depends on your class, unless you're talking about a saving throw...

I think I'd want fire resistance for that encounter.

Ceebs was calling it spiritual warfare and Jersey Girl was describing it as maybe more of a saving throw situation so i don't know. Maybe it depends on if one is attacking or defending? So if it's an attack roll, maybe it's a wisdom modifier to one's roll? Because attacking the great Satan himself requires something other than strength, agility or dexterity. And he seems immune to charisma. Intelligence...hmmm. Being intelligent and able to judge intentions might be a good defensive check against Satan but I'm not sure if intelligence is the best means for attacking him.

But I see what you're saying about special attributes such as fire resistance being useful for taking on Satan. Hey Jersey Girl or ceebs, does being born again give you fire resistance?