"2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Project

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_kairos
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _kairos »

Shulem wrote:
I have a question wrote:Ouch

Robin Scott Jensen is posting over on the MORMON dialogue & discussion board.

click and scroll

John Gee: "The Joseph Smith Papers Project Stumbles"

Thanx for the link-Jensen is bringing rationality with what Gee was trying to turn into a drunken brawl. For example Jensen says the editors used an open diamond if they could not determine whether a letter was a partial a or u etc-seems logical but Gee claims those are errors- what an as#h*l@ Gee also claims that the some /all of he KEP was done after the translation and Joseph Smith was not the "author".Jensen's team put them in the 1835 timeframe and at least indirectly claimed they were part of the translation process, and they were "owned" (Joseph Smith is responsible) by Joseph Smith thus the editors put them in the main volume and not a irrevelant / secondary documents suitable for appendices.

My take Gee is being slammed down for his petty remarks about transcription, though Jensen gives him kudos for his research and scholarship over the years on the Book of Abraham. Let's see if he can survive, even some board members there call Gee's previous scholarship "problematic".
_Analytics
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Analytics »

Shulem wrote:
I have a question wrote:Ouch

Robin Scott Jensen is posting over on the MORMON dialogue & discussion board.

click and scroll

John Gee: "The Joseph Smith Papers Project Stumbles"

My goodness. If anybody is confused about what distinguishes a mopologist from a faithful Mormon scholar, all you need to do is juxtapose the critics of the JSP (e.g. Gee, Jeff Lindsay, and the host of tools at MDD and Interpreter) with Robin Scott Jensen. The latter is a class act.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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_consiglieri
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _consiglieri »

Three cheers for Robin Jensen!

Now THAT is how you stick the knife in with a smile!
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _consiglieri »

And Robin Jensen very politely calls out John Gee for his lie in claiming that he was not consulted sufficiently in advance for the editors to incorporate his suggested changes in the published volume.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Tom
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Tom »

Dr. Midgley is clearly annoyed by Jensen's responses. The former is posting up a storm at SeN, demonstrating the importance of Christian unity (the ostensible subject of Dr. Peterson's post) by blasting away at Jensen, Hauglid, and others. Thank goodness Professor Shears is there to hold him in check.

Among other things, Dr. Midgley alleges that Jensen is "not doing at all well [in responding]. Instead, he is digging a huge hole for himself. Keep in mind that he was involved with a volume in which Egyptian texts were published upside down. He can, of course, be excused because he knows nothing about things Egyptian, except what Hauglid has told him."

He also comments: "The JSP has been competent and professional. But in this instance, that is clearly not the case. Right now Robin Jensen is trying to deflect a few of the criticisms directed towards a book he helped edit. Brian Hauglid, I believe, remains silent."

And: "Hauglid joins Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalf and Chris Smith. And Robin Jensen boasts that he does not know or care where Hauglid got his ideas. And who he has now joined. Amazing."

I'd like to see where Jensen "boasts that he does not know or care where Hauglid got his ideas."
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Tom wrote:Dr. Midgley is clearly annoyed by Jensen's responses. The former is posting up a storm at SeN, demonstrating the importance of Christian unity (the ostensible subject of Dr. Peterson's post) by blasting away at Jensen, Hauglid, and others. Thank goodness Professor Shears is there to hold him in check.

Among other things, Dr. Midgley alleges that Jensen is "not doing at all well [in responding]. Instead, he is digging a huge hole for himself. Keep in mind that he was involved with a volume in which Egyptian texts were published upside down. He can, of course, be excused because he knows nothing about things Egyptian, except what Hauglid has told him."

He also comments: "The JSP has been competent and professional. But in this instance, that is clearly not the case. Right now Robin Jensen is trying to deflect a few of the criticisms directed towards a book he helped edit. Brian Hauglid, I believe, remains silent."

And: "Hauglid joins Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalf and Chris Smith. And Robin Jensen boasts that he does not know or care where Hauglid got his ideas. And who he has now joined. Amazing."

I'd like to see where Jensen "boasts that he does not know or care where Hauglid got his ideas."


This is staggeringly important. The posts on MDD are historic in nature: you are actually, literally getting to see that crowd turn on John Gee. Meanwhile, take a look at what's (ironically) cooking on "SeN":

baxter999 wrote:I found it interesting that at this time of concern about "friendly fire" from Hauglid and Jensen that the President of BYU and Elder Renlund would give talks about how BYU employees should not "sow seeds of doubt". I wonder if they were thinking of Hauglid and Jensen's one-sided recent presentation?

"Latter-day Saint apostle warns BYU employees against sowing seeds of doubt in students" Interesting timing.


Midgley responds:

Midgley wrote:In Hauglid's case the fire is not exactly friendly.


"Seeds of doubt" in what? The Mopologists? Or the Church itself? The harshest accusations, as far as I can tell, are coming from Midgley and the Mopologists. Robin Jensen has been a model of civility and serious scholarship. I don't know what Hauglid has been saying--mightn't someone post his Facebook comments?--but something makes me suspect that he's not going anywhere near over the edge as Midgley. Midgley is basically saying that an official, Church-sanctioned, Church-funded project is being run by "apostates." So the Mopologists are not just at war with the Heartlanders, they are attacking officially-sanctioned Church projects as well. They are officially at war with the Church itself at this point.

And notice that Dan Peterson seems to have pretty much checked out lately (his daily posting rate of 10+ items per day has dropped to almost zero), and, oddly, he's posting on "The Importance of Christian Unity" and linking to an article penned by Jana Reiss. Either he has begun to recognize that his own team is spiraling out of control, or he was warned to tone it down by one of the Brethren.

This, from the MDD thread, by the way, is absolutely priceless:

Calm wrote:And I am assuming this is basic enough that if Gee was in error on placement, it would have been caught by Interpreter's editors, so it leaves me wondering about the reasoning behind the choice not to treat them as disputed.

Clark Goble wrote:I hate to say it because I find the Interpreter an invaluable resource particularly given how the Maxwell Institute has changed focus. However the last few months they've really let through some pretty questionable articles in my opinion.


LOL! My, my: what will this do to the prospect of drumming up more money?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Doctor Scratch wrote: And notice that Dan Peterson seems to have pretty much checked out lately (his daily posting rate of 10+ items per day has dropped to almost zero), and, oddly, he's posting on "The Importance of Christian Unity" and linking to an article penned by Jana Reiss. Either he has begun to recognize that his own team is spiraling out of control, or he was warned to tone it down by one of the Brethren.


Very interesting. It certainly does appear that Peter$on has lost control of SeN.

I'm hoping one of the professors at Cassius will expound on the recent weirdness over at SeN. Is it my imagination or is Stephen Smoot now posting as "Professor Tapir Bukk?" And, why would he think this would be appropriate or funny?

It's hard for me to make sense of Midgley's daily incoherent meltdowns, the recent influx and takeover by various professors and scholars and seemingly lack of interest by DCP. I honestly have no idea what's going on over at SeN.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Symmachus »

kairos wrote:
My take Gee is being slammed down for his petty remarks about transcription, though Jensen gives him kudos for his research and scholarship over the years on the Book of Abraham. Let's see if he can survive, even some board members there call Gee's previous scholarship "problematic".


I almost have sympathy with what Gee's complaints appear to be. But an important distinction that he muddies here is between a diplomatic edition and a critical text. A diplomatic edition transcribes a manuscript into something workable for people who aren't experts at reading a manuscript or not able to consult it directly. Manuscripts, obviously, can contain errors, and diplomatic editions usually transcribe the errors. A critical text is something more than that, or at least different from it: an editor's best judgment not about what the manuscript contains but what the author intended the manuscript to contain when s/he/ze/zir/WTF-pronoun-you-want wrote it or had it written down. Therefore, a diplomatic edition should reproduce spelling errors, whereas a critically edited text usually doesn't except for very particular and often arguable reasons (e.g. some classical philologists have a romantic affinity for the lunate sigma in Greek texts, whereas I think if you're gonna go that route, you might as well dispense with accents, punctuation, and spaces between words). My impression is that the volumes of the JSP project are primarily diplomatic editions that are meant to put the manuscripts in published form, not critical editions in strict sense, but at the same time they are to be legible to the public interested in Mormonism, not specialists in 19th century orthography. From what I can gather, this volume is mostly a diplomatic edition.

Gee faults the editors for:

1) indicating points of doubt and suspending final judgment. That is an unfair criticism for a diplomatic edition; for a critical edition, a textual critic should exercise judgment and make a decision except in the most hopeless cases. For a diplomatic edition, it is better to leave doubtful instances as they are; textual critics will then go and make their educated guesses. Gee is thus faulting them for not doing a critical text.

2) regularizing spelling. A textual critic will generally do that unless there is a compelling interest not to (e.g. there was no regularized spelling when the text, not the manuscript, was first composed). There was regularized spelling in the 1830s and 1840s, and since this volume is not for historians of English orthography or linguists specializing in dialects but rather for Mormons and people interested in Mormonism, it's maybe not that objectionable to regularize the spelling in some instances. I wouldn't have wanted it that way in a diplomatic edition, but I can see why some would in this context. Gee's objection here, though, is that the editors were not doing a diplomatic edition.

In sum: he faults them for not acting as textual critics rather than editors of a diplomatic text, and then he faults them for doing just that.
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_moksha
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _moksha »

Robin Jensen wrote:... and to not relay things to our readers that are not supported by the evidence.

Not relaying things unsupported by the evidence puts Documentary Editing at direct loggerheads with Apologetics!
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Fence Sitter »

The explanation for the upside down photographs are so simple I am sure Jensen et al are reluctant to point it out, since it will make Gee et al just feel worse about themselves.

This is a Joseph Smith Papers project, so the photographs are displaying the Egyptian text the same way Joseph Smith used it.

On a serious note, has anyone else noticed the dual standard being applied here? We can only wish that Gee and Co. would apply the same evaluation standards to what Joseph Smith produced as they are to what is being printed by the Church Historians Office.

I know, I know; Joseph Smith was consulting with God so his (HIS?) mistakes are understandable.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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