"2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Project

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_I have a question
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _I have a question »

Fence Sitter wrote:The explanation for the upside down photographs are so simple I am sure Jensen et al are reluctant to point it out, since it will make Gee et al just feel worse about themselves.

This is a Joseph Smith Papers project, so the photographs are displaying the Egyptian text the same way Joseph Smith used it.

Oh, that’s priceless. :lol:
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Tom
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Tom »

Yesterday I read an interesting comment from Dan Vogel at journal.interpreterfoundation.org responding to Dr. Gee's criticisms of the transcriptions in the JSP volume. It's now gone missing. Must be a glitch. I hope he'll resubmit his comment.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Tom »

I found it an interesting exercise to compare Dr. Gee's transcriptions and the book's transcriptions with the relevant images posted on the JSP website.

Dr. Gee writes:
Egyptian Alphabet Documents
….
Again, transcription is an issue in this section. For this section, we pick one page at random (p. 58) and note the following transcription errors:

◾ [Page 180]Line 7: For “{◊\B}ethcho” read “Bethcho.” There is no overwriting on the character although there is some touch-up. The scribe attempted to write the B with a loop at the bottom as on the previous line but needed to do so with two strokes of the pen, the second of which is slightly smeared.
◾ Line 7: For “fi{◊\f}th” read “fi{a\f}th”
◾ Line 9: For “injoym{◊\e}New Testament” read “injoym{e\a}New Testament”
◾ Line 11: For “resides” read “reside<s>”
◾ Line 12: For “Kah-tu-ain-tr{◊\i}eth-” read “Kah-tu-ain-tra<eth> -“

Compare these transcriptions to the image here.

Dr. Gee writes:
Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language

This document has long been claimed to be the key document for the understanding of Egyptian by Church leaders in Kirtland. The authorship of the document is unknown. The transcriptions here are also a problem. Again, we pick a page at random (p. 134–35).

◾ Line 5: for “government,” read “government.” The punctuation is a period, not a comma.
◾ Line 7: for “desendent from” read “desendemt fron”
◾ Line 14: for “another” read “anothr”
◾ Line 15: for “{it\a}nd” read “{it\A}nd”
◾ Line 16: for “above, more” read “above, mor<e>”
◾ Line 19: for “possessions” read “possession<s>”
◾ Line 20: for “possession” read “possessian”
◾ Line 27: for “I{◊◊\at}a” read “I{to\at}a”
◾ Line 32: for “Hoe-oop” read “H{a\o}e-oop”
◾ Line 33: for “dominion” read “dom<i>nion”

Compare these transcriptions to the image here.

Dr. Gee wrote:
Book of Abraham Manuscripts

The manuscripts of the Book of Abraham have been published before by one of the editors. Unfortunately, these documents are also plagued by transcription problems. Again, we use a random page, p. 261, which contains the following transcription discrepancies:

◾ Line 1: For “Behold Potiphars” read “Behod Potiphas”
◾ Line 9: For “descendant” read “{d\<d>}escendant”
◾ Line 10: For “canaanites” read “canaanite<s>”
◾ Line 11: For “{s\〈S〉}prang” read “{S\〈s〉}prang”
◾ Line 12: For “canaanites” read “c<a>naanites”
◾ Line 13: For “prerevd” read “prerved“
◾ Line 15: For “Zep-tah” read “{G\Z}ep-tah“
◾ Line 16: For “Egeptah” read “Egeptah<us>”

Compare these transcriptions to the image here.

It's also worth reviewing the JSP note on transcriptions here.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
_mentalgymnast
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Midgley responds:

Midgley wrote:In Hauglid's case the fire is not exactly friendly.


"Seeds of doubt" in what? The Mopologists? Or the Church itself? The harshest accusations, as far as I can tell, are coming from Midgley and the Mopologists. Robin Jensen has been a model of civility and serious scholarship


Seeds of doubt in the authenticity of the Book of Abraham's provenance in reference to its divine origin. If you've read Jeff Lindsay's recent comments in regards to this so called controversy you've undoubtedly surmised that Jensen has been less than forthcoming in recognizing the efforts of folks like Nibley and Gee.

It is not difficult to wrap my mind around why Midgley would take on the naysayers and point out the fact that they are being dishonest in the sense that they tend towards promulgating the views of the critics while leaving the views of other researchers by the wayside.

A while back I watched a presentation by Hauglid and Jensen given at Benchmark Books in Salt Lake. Hauglid came across as one sided and definitive in his presentation as though he had already made up his mind and had become a disciple of Vogel at that point. It's interesting how once a bridge has been crossed how difficult it is to turn around and remember and/or recognize what was/is on the other side.

Regards,
MG
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG,

Can any of the Church's egyptologists translate the English version of the Facsimile Explanations back into original Egyptian?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Dr Exiled »

mentalgymnast wrote:It is not difficult to wrap my mind around why Midgley would take on the naysayers and point out the fact that they are being dishonest in the sense that they tend towards promulgating the views of the critics while leaving the views of other researchers by the wayside.


Mormonism is like the flat-earthers. Sorry to be so harsh but that is what it is really like. So, why should a critic of the flat-earth theory entertain the nonsense that the flat-earth faithful apologists are spouting out? Answer Doc's question, first. Answer Dr. Jenkins' question, second. Answer why Nelson feels it is necessary to mislead regarding the supposed revelations he is getting in the middle of the night. Show us that the mopologists/leaders belong in a rational discussion and then maybe they might get some of the respect they so desperately want.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Fence Sitter
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Fence Sitter »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Seeds of doubt in the authenticity of the Book of Abraham's provenance in reference to its divine origin. If you've read Jeff Lindsay's recent comments in regards to this so called controversy you've undoubtedly surmised that Jensen has been less than forthcoming in recognizing the efforts of folks like Nibley and Gee.

It is not difficult to wrap my mind around why Midgley would take on the naysayers and point out the fact that they are being dishonest in the sense that they tend towards promulgating the views of the critics while leaving the views of other researchers by the wayside.

A while back I watched a presentation by Hauglid and Jensen given at Benchmark Books in Salt Lake. Hauglid came across as one sided and definitive in his presentation as though he had already made up his mind and had become a disciple of Vogel at that point. It's interesting how once a bridge has been crossed how difficult it is to turn around and remember and/or recognize what was/is on the other side.

Regards,
MG

Jensen's view is one of divine origin also, but you would know that if you had taken the time to actually listed to what he says.

Perhaps you could provide a constructive commentary of Vogel's views regarding the time line of the production of the Book of Abraham vis a vis Gee's and explain why you believe one over the other, rather than simply name calling and hoping no one calls you on it.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Show us that the mopologists/leaders belong in a rational discussion and then maybe they might get some of the respect they so desperately want.

My goodness you do want a miracle don't you! Leaders rational? For every question we ask, they will ask us to reword it into a question they like better. :lol:
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Shulem »

John Gee wrote:The manuscripts of the Book of Abraham have been published before by one of the editors. Unfortunately, these documents are also plagued by transcription problems. Again, we use a random page, p. 261, which contains the following transcription discrepancies:


That's very strong language to be using in this instance against fellow church scholars. I wonder if John Gee is going to run into problems with church officials as he stirs the pot of dissension among academic ranks? Do I smell an apostasy in the works? What's the outlook for John Gee as he begins his journey kicking against the pricks?

Satan says:

Image

Oh goody, another fallen apologist is coming our way
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Re: "2 Inks" Gee criticises scholarly standards of JSP Proje

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Philo Sofee wrote:For every question we ask, they will ask us to reword it into a question they like better.


I love this! This is tagline worthy!
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
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