Dr. VelhoBurrinho
21 hours ago
Dan thanks for posting this.
Professionally I have found that overall some type of 12 step program is invaluable with what we call “addictions.” And connecting to some type of higher power is key in healing the individual and reconnecting them to themselves and their communities. I would also say even someone healthy would benefit from at least working through the steps as a normal part of adult development.
Louis Midgley Dr. VelhoBurrinho
16 hours ago edited
It seems that the Little Old Donkey agrees that there was something abnormal and unhealthy about the behavior of that fellow who on Sunday smashed his father's car, inquired himself and destroyed two other cars.
Little Old Donkey claimed that "connecting to some type of higher power is key in healing the individual and reconnecting them to themselves and their communities." It seems that LOD is asserting that "some type of higher power" needs to be part of a person's life to be normal and healthy.
So it seems that the Little Old Donkey should have no objections to what I wrote below. If not, I am not sure what they might be, other than some personal issues he may have with me.
Dr. VelhoBurrinho Louis Midgley
14 hours ago edited
LM: “when compared with mess that fellow has made of himself and the lives of his parents. The fact is that if that fellow had been in some congregation worshiping God, this would not have happened...... without faith in God and immortality everything is not only an open option but is permitted and even sometimes encouraged. Something goes wrong when people understand themselves as mere lumps of meat who are mere pleasure seekers. Their own lives and those around them are often made violent, short, and really nasty.”
Dr. Midgley I believe you are missing the point on how a belief in a higher power works in twelve step programs. The idea that worshiping in a church would have avoided this or fixed it is very simplistic thinking.
How the concept of a higher power works is best summed up in the AA book pg. 44-45 where it says :
If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy [such as organized religion] of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshaled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.
Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Most people can't go through this process without fundamentally changing their understanding God and religion. Atheists or Agnostics lean into something they feel is greater than themselves (which may or may not be a belief in god). Even with people whom believe in God many times their previous understanding and patterns of their belief in and of God that put them in the bad situation they are in. And many many times they completely re arrange their idea of who and what God is.
And yes many who were LDS disaffiliate with the church, but having seen the growth and change in their lives they have truly earned the title of Saint.
Louis Midgley Dr. VelhoBurrinho
14 hours ago edited
Dear Little Old Donkey:
I have no objection to what you have quoted from the AA book from pages 44-45. What that very vague language says is that people cannot simply strain harder and an addiction will simple disappear. And I agree that "codes and philosophies" just do not do the job. Christians of most every type and variety do not think that we can just make ourselves whole by our own efforts. A way back we had this Power of Positive Thinking rubbish. It was one more of those "Jesus Saves! Send the Money" rackets. Of course people search for a power "greater than ourselves." So "where and how were we to find this Power?" You neglected to explain exactly how AA manages to do this for addicts. And also what exactly fills the moral empty space or vacuum.
Have you been through some type of 12 step program? Have you had an addiction and found a way to control it? If so, then with what "power" greater than yourself?
This is a long way to indicate that I do not see how you have responded to what I posted. I was not claiming that going to church meeting once a week and being bored for a few hours fixes much of anything.
Dr. VelhoBurrinho Louis Midgley
12 hours ago
LM: “This is a long way to indicate that I do not see how you have responded to what I posted. I was not claiming that going to church once a week and being bored for a few hours fixes much of anything.”
Do you remember writing this?
LM: “The fact is that if that fellow had been in some congregation worshiping God, this would not have happened.”
I think you are mistaken thinking that this person had a religious or belief problem, when he had a medical problem.
Now another point of your response you stated:
LM: “Have you been through some type of 12 step program? Have you had an addiction and found a way to control it? If so, then with what "power" greater than yourself?”
I really wouldn't say you asked that out of any concern or charitable feelings. In fact I feel it is quite the opposite. But I will entertain you none the less. I'll let you make of this whatever you will. I guess you will show your character by what you say or do with this.
No I do not have what I would call a classic addiction. I believe mine was more of a work and goal oriented pathology, that was blocking my growth as an individual, and limiting my connection to God. and those around me.
I have lost three cousins (the last one was two days ago), and a grandfather to mental illness and substance abuse. While supporting and helping the brother of one of these individuals, we began to see the patterns that past addictions and traumas can have on families that ripples through latter generations. As part of out grieving. healing, and growing process we studied and individually worked the twelve step programs mostly through Al -Anon. At lest with myself, I find I am more centered, and am a better person.
Since then I have attended different meetings from time to time as a support for someone. On a few instances it has been a patient who opened up about their problem while in clinic for the first time time to another person. I will go as far as picking them up for their first meeting, and attending with them.
Louis Midgley Dr. VelhoBurrinho
28 minutes ago
LOD: "I think you are mistaken thinking that this person had a religious or belief problem, when he had a medical problem."
LCM: You could be right. The police raised that very issue, since they are trained to look for such things. So I am not , as you put it, "mistaken."
LOD: "I really wouldn't say you asked that out of any concern or charitable feelings. In fact I feel it is quite the opposite."
LCM: This is Professor Peterson's blog. He is widely known for defending the faith of Latter-day Saints. Dan focuses on providing useful information for faithful Latter-day Saints. Those more or less disaffected from the master narrative that grounds the Church of Jesus Christ turn up venting their dislike for his faith. And also for any faith in God. They mostly hide their identity behind handles. I am not quite sure where you stand. Your answer to a question I asked you helped explain where and why you post as you do.
LOD: "I really wouldn't say you asked that out of any concern or charitable feelings."
LCM: You are wrong about this.
I don’t think he’s wrong. If he was, then midgley would have taken a second to recognize that Dr VelhoBurrinho mentioned losing a cousin two days ago to such a struggle. I don’t post on SeN, so I can’t comment, but my heart goes out to him, and I hope someone can acknowledge his comment and offer some kindness.
Midgley’s unChristlike attitude toward anyone outside his church or who has a different opinion than him is well-established. Midgley is an unkind, mean-spirited bully, and he uses the Mormon church as an excuse to continue behaving this way. His daughter may help him out with his bookkeeping but I would hope she’s not okay with his angry contempt for all those humans he considers less than himself. His name-calling alone (“little old donkey” instead of the commenter’s given avatar name is only one example) would get him thrown out of my University.