Blake Ostler Erupts with Rage on Faith-Promoting Rumor

[Guest]

I would like to be able to say that loutish and self-satisfied have nothing to do with Mormon theology because those words had nothing to do with my ideals as a young LDS person. But what am I to conclude from the examples of Elder McConkie, the Mopologists, and so many others?

Well, my dear Reverend, I didn't mean to say or imply anything about Mormon ideals or even theology, so I probably slipped in the phrase "history of Mormon theology" too quietly, and I should have explained what I meant, though you clearly saw the outlines of my thought beneath my murky ineptitude: Mormon theology has been a contentious enterprise until relatively recent times, but Joseph Smith vs. everyone, Brigham Young vs. Pratt, Joseph Fielding Smith vs. the 20th century, Bruce R. McConkie vs. Eugene Englund, the FARMSians vs. the new MI are some notable examples in that history.

Vogel responds at Faith-Promoting Rumor to Lindsay's essay...

Vogel abounds in scholarly virtues, and many other kinds besides. A true gem.

[_Shulem]

Vogel abounds in scholarly virtues, and many other kinds besides. A true gem.

ikr. And he's damn good looking for his age too.

ha ha

[_Symmachus]

Speaking of the Oxford Journal of Religion, how many subscribers to that journal have converted to Mormonism, thanks to Ostler's Mormon philosophizing?

That's what I thought.

How many now think Mormon theology is respectable?

That's what I thought.

How many believe what they've read actually has anything to do with Mormonism?

Yet again, that is what I thought.

Some pointed questions. For those curious, Religious Studies, the journal in which Ostler published one article more than twenty years ago and which he refers to in the comments collected by Everybody Wang Chung as "coming out of Oxford" (and also referenced in his FAIR testimony here as connected with Oxford), is actually published by Cambridge University Press. A "careful scholar" indeed.

The article, by the way, is a somewhat polemical response to another article that had made an argument that Mormons weren't theists in the classical sense (which Mormons used to be proud of). A footnote reveals that Ostler's motivation is no different in a scholarly journal from a comment on a blog like Faith-Promoting Rumor:

Howsepian presents a fourth option, asserting that Mormons may appear to believe in God (s), but in reality do not believe in any God(s) because 'in the case of Mormonism, such a discrepancy between appearance and reality might have become manifest ... because Mormons have been intentionally deceptive about what their actual theological beliefs are...' (idem, p. 36I). Such a view appears to me to express an obvious religious prejudice against Mormons and as such is a reprehensible ad hominem. Howsepian does not support this slander in any way, he merely throws it out gratuitously as a live possibility and then refuses to pursue it. What is the purpose of such an allegation aside from besmirching the collective character of a rather decent group of people?

Here is what Howesepian wrote on p. 361 of his article:

As we have clearly seen, Mormons do appear to believe in the existence of a plurality of Gods and, given the fact that McConkie is widely acknowledged to be speaking for the whole LDS Church on this matter, also appear to worship a plurality of Gods. But given what we have concluded concerning our first objective, we are not thereby warranted in making an inference from such an appearance to the fact of Mormon polytheism. It is obvious, we said, that one can appear to believe that p and, at the same time, actually not believe - or even disbelieve - that p. In the case of Mormonism, such a discrepancy between appearance and reality might have become manifest for at least the following two reasons: first, because Mormons have been intentionally deceptive about what their actual theological beliefs are ; and second, because no entity countenanced as being a God by the LDS Church, given any plausible characterization of the concept of deity, qualifies as being a genuine God

Surely, Ostler knows about McConkie's deception about Mormon conceptions of god: 1) because McConkie denied that Mormon leaders ever taught a polytheistic doctrine like Adam-God, and then 2) he privately admitted that they had for a time. This is well known.

Publicly disagreeing with Ostler's belief = slandering him and his tribe.

[_lostindc]

I didn’t read much of this thread but I feel fine stating that Blake is a narcissistic asshole. When I was still in the Church I couldn’t believe the love his writings received. I heard individuals call Blake the Mormon Plato.

Someone on this board dismantled one of Blake’s works years ago. Anyone remember that thread?

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

When I was still in the Church I couldn’t believe the love his writings received. I heard individuals call Blake the Mormon Plato.

Based on Blake's online history of swearing, degrading individuals and crude language, I think a more appropriate comparison would be that Blake Ostler is the Andrew Dice Clay of Mormonism.

Also, I would like to add that Blake's fake hairpiece looks horrendous.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Based on Blake's online history of swearing, degrading individuals and crude language, I think a more appropriate comparison would be that Blake Ostler is the Andrew Dice Clay of Mormonism.

I feel like it’d be too easy to drop a Joseph/Fanny Alger ‘Hickory Dickory Dock’ joke right now.

- Doc

[_Tom]

I hope not to derail the topic, but I just have a factual question. SmallAxe makes the following comment in his review of Gee's review:

None of this is surprising given that the founder of the Interpreter has barely published any peer-reviewed work in his field over his 40+ year career (I can’t find more than six articles and one book). This would not meet the standards at any institution that BYU sees as a peer; and it is an embarrassment for many at BYU.

I don't think that's necessarily true. A scholarly monograph and six peer-reviewed articles are quite enough to get tenure in most humanities fields at probably all but a handful of schools. Doing nothing else after that won't get you promoted to full professor likely (although all kinds of factors are involved there and it's a little less formalized than tenure in my observation), but even so, given that he's referring to Daniel Peterson, my question is: what are the six scholarly articles that Peterson has published? The one book is the popularizing Muhammad biography published by an evangelical scholarly press (Eerdman's, I think) long after he'd received BYU's version of tenure, but I have never been able to find a single peer-reviewed article in a non-Mormon scholarly journal. My understanding is that he's had no scholarly monograph and no scholarly articles, though he has obviously published a significant amount of work in another genre.

Here’s a list of what Dr. Peterson categorized as “Articles and Reviews on Islamic and Arabic Subjects“ in his 2009 CV:

28) “A Prophet Emerging: Fetal Narratives in Islamic Literature.” In Vanessa R. Sasson and Jane Marie Law, eds., Imagining the Fetus: The Unborn in Myth, Religion, and Culture (New York: Oxford University Press, 2008), 203-222.

27) “Identity, Muslim.” In Richard C. Martin, et al., eds. Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World, 2 vols. (New York: Macmillan Reference USA, 2004), 1:339-344.

26) “Fatwa.” In Richard C. Martin, et al., eds. Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World, 2 vols. (New York: Macmillan Reference USA, 2004), 1:255.

25) “Allah.” In Richard C. Martin, et al., eds. Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World, 2 vols. (New York: Macmillan Reference USA, 2004), 1:39-41.

24) “Transcendent Translations.” BYU Magazine 58/3 (Summer 2004): 3-4.

23) “Mercy.” In Jane Dammen McAuliffe, et al., eds., Encyclopaedia of the Qur’an, (Leiden: Brill, 2003), 3:377-380.

22) “Good News.” In Jane Dammen McAuliffe, et al., eds., Encyclopaedia of the Qur’an, (Leiden: Brill, 2002), 2:340-342.

21) “The Language of God: Understanding the Qur’an.” BYU Studies 40/4 (2001): 51- 68.

20) “Creation.” In Jane Dammen McAuliffe, et al., eds., Encyclopaedia of the Qur’an, (Leiden: Brill, 2001), 1:472-480.

19) “Understanding Islam.” In Spencer J. Palmer, ed., Mormons and Muslims: Spiritual Foundations and Modern Manifestations, updated and revised edition (Provo: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University Press, 2002), 11-43.

18) Translation of selections from Rahat al-‘Aql by Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani, for An Anthology of Philosophy in Persia, edited by Seyyid Hossein Nasr with Mehdi Aminrazavi (New York: Oxford University Press, 2001), 175-192.

17) “Final Thoughts: Response to McClymond’s ‘Prophet or Loss.’” In David Noel Freedman and Michael J. McClymond, eds., The Rivers of Paradise: Moses, Buddha, Confucius, Jesus, and Muhammad as Religious Founders (Grand Rapids and Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans, 2001), 675-681.

16) “Muhammad.” In David Noel Freedman and Michael J. McClymond, eds., The Rivers of Paradise: Moses, Buddha, Confucius, Jesus, and Muhammad as Religious Founders (Grand Rapids and Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans, 2001), 457-612.

15) With Stephen D. Ricks. “The Throne Theophany/Prophetic Call of Muhammad.” In Stephen D. Ricks, Donald W. Parry, and Andrew H. Hedges, eds., The Disciple as Scholar: Essays on Scripture and the Ancient World in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson
(Provo: FARMS, 2000), 323-337.

14) Review of Charles Burnett, Magic and Divination in the Middle Ages: Texts and Techniques in the Islamic and Christian Worlds (Aldershot and Brookfield, Vermont: Variorum, 1996). In Al-Masaq: Islam and the Medieval Mediterranean 11 (1999): 176- 179.

13) “Al-Kirmani on the Divine Tawhid.” In Charles Melville, ed., Proceedings of the Third European Conference in Iranian Studies, Part 2, Mediaeval and Modern Persian Studies (Wiesbaden: Dr. Ludwig Reichert Verlag, 1999), 179-193.

12) Review of Michael Fishbein, trans. The History of al-Tabari, vol. 8, The Victory of Islam (Albany: State University of New York Press, 1997), and of Adrian Brockett, trans., The History of al-Tabari, vol. 16: The Community Divided (Albany: State University of New York Press, 1997). In International Journal of Middle East Studies 31 (1999): 124-126.

11) On-line review of John Renard, ed., Windows on the House of Islam: Muslim Sources on Spirituality and Religious Life (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1998). In The Medieval Review (16 February 1999).
[http://www.hti.umich.edu/b/bmr/mbrowse.html]

10) “Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani on Creation.” In Ahmad Hasnawi, Abdelali Elamrani- Jamal, and Maroun Aouad, eds., Perspectives arabes et médiévales sur la tradition scientifique et philosophique grecque: Actes du colloque de la SIHSPAI (Société internationale d’histoire des sciences et de la philosophie arabes et islamiques): Paris, 31 mars -3 Avril 1993, Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 79 (Louvain and Paris: Peeters and Institut du monde arabe, 1997), 555-567.

9) With William J. Hamblin. “Zaydiyah.” In The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World, edited by John L. Esposito. 4 vols. New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1995. 4:373-374.

8) “Isma‘iliyah.” In The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World, edited by John L. Esposito. 4 vols. New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1995. 2:341- 342.

7) With William J. Hamblin. “Eschatology.” In The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World, edited by John L. Esposito. 4 vols. New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1995. 1:440-442.

6) Note on Logic and Aristotle’s Rhetoric and Poetics in Medieval Arabic Philosophy, by Deborah L. Black (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1990). In Religious Studies Review 20/1 (January 1994): 72.

5) Note on Just War and Jihad: Historical and Theoretical Perspectives on War and Peace in Western and Islamic Traditions, edited by John Kelsay and James Turner Johnson (Westport, CN: Greenwood Press, 1991). In Religious Studies Review 20/1 (January 1994): 71.

4) With William J. Hamblin. “Neoplatonism and the Medieval Mediterranean Magical Traditions.” In Incognita: International Journal for Cognitive Studies in the Humanities 2 (1991): 217-240.

3) Abstract of “Cosmogony and the Ten Separated Intellects in the Rahat al-‘Aql of Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani,” a 1990 Malcolm H. Kerr Award Winning Dissertation. In Middle East Studies Association Bulletin 25 (July 1991): 41-42.

2) With Spencer J. Palmer, Roger R. Keller, and James A. Toronto. “Islam.” In Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View, edited by Spencer J. Palmer and Roger R. Keller, 180-195. Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1990.

1) “Does the Qur’an Teach Creation Ex Nihilo?” In By Study and Also By Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, edited by John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, 1:584-610. 2 vols. Salt Lake City and Provo: Deseret Book Company and Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1990.

And another item I located:

Review: Anthology of Arabic Literature, Culture, and Thought from Pre-Islamic Times to the Present by Bassam K. Frangieh, al-'Arabiyya, Vol. 38/39 (2005-2006), pp. 181-182.

What qualifies as a “peer-reviewed article in a non-Mormon scholarly journal.” How about number 4) above?

[_Symmachus]

....

What qualifies as a “peer-reviewed article in a non-Mormon scholarly journal.” How about number 4) above?

Thank you, Tom, for your detailed answer. This explains why I have never found Dr. Peterson's work appear in any of the major scholarly databases. Yes, 4) is about the closest we come to finding a publication in a non-Mormon scholarly journal, though I note that it was with a co-author (Hamblin). But Incognita published only two issues (apparently Dr. Peterson published in the second and last) and the journal is now defunct. From what I can find, the founding editor was a scholar of magic and gnosticism, Iaon Culianu; he was murdered under very suspicious circumstances (perhaps to do with Romanian intelligence). Culianu, like that other Romanian in Chicago of whom Hugh Nibley was so fond, appears to have been almost a devotee of his subject rather than a mere student of it.

That, in any case, is the only example of an article that presumably was peer-reviewed, although Incognita seems to have had a strong ideological bent, to judge from this retrospective of Culianu (note that "incognita" means literally "things unknown," and is the Latin equivalent of "the Unknown.") In any case, new journals usually take a few years to build up their quality and reputation (measured by the inverse proportion of submissions to rejections). Incognita, it seems, never had that chance, as no one picked up the (ideological?) project after Culianu's murder.

To sum up: one co-authored article in a short-lived niche publication over the course of a thirty-plus year career. One popular book that is largely based on secondary scholarship (particularly W. Montgomery Watt), favorably reviewed by a freelance writer in BYU Studies. The rest are edited volumes (which aren't peer-reviewed), book reviews (let us assume they were solicited by editors), publications from conferences (these aren't really peer-reviewed either but instead selected from the group based on whatever the conference organizers want), and encyclopedia articles, which, like book reviews, do attest to a certain level of confidence on the part of the editors in minimum professional competence but aren't original scholarship and are not subject to peer-review (there wouldn't be a point for it). Book reviews and encyclopedia articles don't generally count for much in evaluating original scholarly contributions in, say, a tenure application. Conference publications and essays in multi-authored volumes are only slightly more relevant.

Everything else is BYU Studies or apologetics. And of course Sic et Non.

[_Tom]

Thanks for the interesting background on the journal and its editor, Symmachus.

I should clarify that the reason I used a 2009 CV as my source is because I haven’t located a more recent version. I also looked through Jstor and Google Scholar for more recent peer-reviewed articles of his on Islamic/Arabic topics, but I didn’t find anything relevant.

[_Symmachus]

Tom, I'm sure all of his peer-reviewed articles have been published in the years since 2009. After all, it does take a few years to update some of these databases.