Could this happen? Airing of grievances & simple apologies?

[_malkie]

Does Shades have a second site? What am I missing?

Otherwise, Dr. Shades doesn't actually post here all that much. He posts regularly but not obsessively and his posts are generally short. Unless he's really fanatical over on his second site that I haven't seen yet, he seems to be dedicating much less of his life to execrating the Mormon church than numerous apologists dedicate of their lives to defending that church. It's a pretty lackadaisical execration if you ask me.

"Lackadaisical execration" might be a good name for a craft beer.

If you go to the list of members, you'll see a column for Website.

For Dr Shades, the link takes you to http://www.mormoninformation.com/

This may be what is being referred to as his other site.

[_Dr Moore]

Hi everyone, how goes it?

Through private emails with Dr. Peterson, I knew he would be more or less off grid in Finland for several days. So I more or less hung back on monitoring the fruits of our experiment.

I see the efforts at moderating and deescalating as an encouraging signal. Parenthetically, is it just me or has Dr. Shades been having a real good time quietly stirring that pot?! Hehe, maybe just me and if so, then all apologies Shades, I will put Perfume on shuffle for 2 hours tonight, doubling my nascent evening ritual.

Seriously, you all are “the truth” (the urban dictionary sense) when it comes to subtleties of human thoughts and expressions. I learn so much from you good folks. Incredible comments in this thread. Really, how could anyone not love this group?

As to the Sledge affair:
1) Applaud Dr. Peterson admonishing it to stop. Thanks!
2) The Stormfront reference is problematic for me. I wish Dr. Peterson would delete or edit that comment, as it explicitly accuses everyone here of engaging in vile hate speech. Less offensive comments have been deleted or led to bans at SeN before. No one here is about real hate speech, even if emotions run high due to the content matter. I want to believe no one on SeN is about that either. Comparing someone you disagree with, however violently, to the KKK or likeminded hate groups, just crosses the line.

I believe, without knowing for sure, that such wildly offensive references don’t survive this particular “main” board of the site. Other boards, which I don’t personally visit, might, but they have essential rules too, are moderates at the extreme, and are disclaimered as such.

To say a bit more on this. I had a deal void message written up and ready to send, but then Dan posted his admonition to Sledge. It’s a dilemma. I don’t want a contest for which integrity demands one thing even if my heart and mind want something else.

Anyway, yes I am tempted to void due to the persistence of the Stormfront comment, as yet uncontested, plus notably an upvote to that comment from Kiwi57 (did you upvote that with your middle finger, Kiwi?), and seeing Dr. P moderating comments rather aggressively on the three witnesses thread in the interim.

According to Wikipedia, the mission statement for Stormfront is: “Stormfront is a resource for those courageous men and women fighting to preserve their White Western culture, ideals and freedom of speech and association—a forum for planning strategies and forming political and social groups to ensure victory.” Organized hate. Evil. Vile. Also, from what I have read, censored, broke and now defunct.

Dan, and followers, if that’s how you perceive — and wish others to perceive — the good folks (including the justifiably angry and embittered ones) here at MormonDiscussions, then I affirmatively want nothing to do with supporting you, which includes my good faith, however silly or flawed, effort to ennoble SeN with an enticement to lead the way to a more civil dialogue.

I might flip a coin later tonight.

[_Gadianton]

I think Sledge brings up a great point and I hope his comment stands. Stormfront is the perfect example of a hate site, and I'm sure that's what folks have in mind when comparing this site to Stormfront. And that characterization has been made repeatedly.

Suppose for a moment that somehow we got tangled up with Stormfront. Well, in fact, to a limited extent we have. That Ajax guy in off topic was a big Stormfront participant, and a minor board event erupted when that was figured out, and so it's not totally inconceivable. Suppose that it went further, into what could be called a "board war" between this board and Stormfront. Now suppose that a new contributor to Stormfront had been trolling this board a little, but then revealed an interest in seeing the rhetoric toned down between our two boards, and so offers a deal.

I'm assuming everyone can see we've just passed what's conceivable, but I think it will be worth it to flesh it out anyway.

So this new Stormfront participant takes a "position" of some kind, with Stormfront -- I don't know what really exists in that culture but just pretend -- say he becomes a Grand Sentinel of the Stormfront Guard. He offers a deal to us, that if we will quit referring to Stormfront as a "hate site" then he'll donate 10k to the charity of our choice.

So what do we do? Wouldn't it be a horrible betrayal of principle to quit referring to a real hate site as a hate site? The only option to a severe moral lapse, is to implicitly acknowledge that such language had been mere hyperbole and potentially slanderous.

It's really psychologically fascinating some of the twists and turns this wager has taken.

[_Kishkumen]

In theory, an excellent point.

In practice, my heart goes out to gemli. He has done better by Midgley than Midgley has ever done by him, and yet, there are still probably more than a hundred severely defaming comments about his personal life that Peterson has left up on SeN, his religious site celebrating Mormon life. And by defaming I don’t mean cutesy little innuendos. I mean brutally rude, stunningly inappropriate comments about every private aspect of gemli’s personal, professional, emotional, and educational life and history. Midgley’s comments, always allowed by Peterson, are truly, truly sick. They are hurtful, ugly, and mean-spirited. You really have to be a bully to come up with what midgley posts, and Peterson gives that bully an open, lds-sanctioned, Mormon-approved pulpit.

So yes, let’s remember midgley is also a person. A person who represents himself as the pinnacle of a god-approved life, who treats other persons outside of his religion like crap. I think it’s time to admit that in this case, the trying to do better by our opponents may not apply to those pathological outliers like midgley. He deserves no respect.

I prefer to remember that gemli is also a person, who in no way deserves to be treated as Midgley treats him.

My heart and my admiration go out to gemli because he is a model of what I advocated in deed, not theory.

[_Dr. Shades]

Does Shades have a second site? What am I missing?

Here's my second site. It predates the current iteration of this site by nearly eight years:

MormonInformation.com

[_Philo Sofee]

I had no idea you had that site Shades. BOOKMARKED!

[_Doctor Scratch]

I think Sledge brings up a great point and I hope his comment stands. Stormfront is the perfect example of a hate site, and I'm sure that's what folks have in mind when comparing this site to Stormfront. And that characterization has been made repeatedly.

Suppose for a moment that somehow we got tangled up with Stormfront. Well, in fact, to a limited extent we have. That Ajax guy in off topic was a big Stormfront participant, and a minor board event erupted when that was figured out, and so it's not totally inconceivable. Suppose that it went further, into what could be called a "board war" between this board and Stormfront. Now suppose that a new contributor to Stormfront had been trolling this board a little, but then revealed an interest in seeing the rhetoric toned down between our two boards, and so offers a deal.

I'm assuming everyone can see we've just passed what's conceivable, but I think it will be worth it to flesh it out anyway.

So this new Stormfront participant takes a "position" of some kind, with Stormfront -- I don't know what really exists in that culture but just pretend -- say he becomes a Grand Sentinel of the Stormfront Guard. He offers a deal to us, that if we will quit referring to Stormfront as a "hate site" then he'll donate 10k to the charity of our choice.

So what do we do? Wouldn't it be a horrible betrayal of principle to quit referring to a real hate site as a hate site? The only option to a severe moral lapse, is to implicitly acknowledge that such language had been mere hyperbole and potentially slanderous.

It's really psychologically fascinating some of the twists and turns this wager has taken.

This is exactly correct. My, how I've enjoyed watching them wriggle at the end of the string. It's so true: if they think that MormonDiscussions.com is the equivalent of a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist site--something that is so bad that it ought to be stomped out of existence, and cannot even be mentioned by its actual name--they why on earth would they cave for a mere $10,000? I guess their own values, their own souls, are for sale for the tune of 10 G's?

But we know that's not true. The real answer is that they have been exaggerating and ramping up the aggressive rhetoric for 40+ years. They don't think MDB is akin to Nazis; they use that kind of language because it amuses them--it's a game to them. They do it because they enjoy it--it makes them feel empowered, and they really like seeing other people in pain. The funny thing is that Midgley seems to have *obeyed* Peterson's orders, which just means that Midgley is every bit the sell-out as DCP. Kiwi, though, has been unable to restrain himself.

Well, I hope that Dr. Moore keeps "thinking about it" until Jan. 31 of 2020. We all know what the answer is at this point. I, personally, am still interested in watching DCP act as if he still has a chance of collecting the $10,000.

And this is, of course, a classic:

Through private emails with Dr. Peterson...

LOL! So, it would seem that Dr. Peterson feels that he's found an ally in you, Dr. Moore! I bet he's been telling you all sorts of tales concerning the mistreatment he's received at the hand of people on this board. And, I bet that he's supplied you with zero links and zero specific examples to support those tales. Still, I'm glad he's chatting with you, and trying to work out a deal whereby he and his close associates have to behave with greater decorum and decency. I mean, so long as they do that, you'll be their ally, right? And, like, agree with them that the folks here are, like, Grade-A Meanies?

[_Dr Moore]

Dean Robbers,

If I understand your memo correctly, you have articulated a startling reality.

More succinctly, perhaps, that no Christian would refuse, for any money, to stop calling the Devil the Devil.

And by the same logic, you assert that an expressed willingness not to call MD a hate site in exchange for a symbolic monetary prize (donated to charity) betrays a knowledge that this board is, indeed, not a proper hate site at all. Rather, the pejorative is being used as a rhetorical device to elicit a response, likely in retaliation for a specific grievance or a collection of specific grievances.

I believe you have the truth.

[_Dr Moore]

LOL! So, it would seem that Dr. Peterson feels that he's found an ally in you, Dr. Moore! I bet he's been telling you all sorts of tales concerning the mistreatment he's received at the hand of people on this board. And, I bet that he's supplied you with zero links and zero specific examples to support those tales. Still, I'm glad he's chatting with you, and trying to work out a deal whereby he and his close associates have to behave with greater decorum and decency. I mean, so long as they do that, you'll be their ally, right? And, like, agree with them that the folks here are, like, Grade-A Meanies?

Alas, my emails get straight to business and are rather boring. Should I worry that I've shot myself in the foot by showing too little interest in past misdeeds of certain malevolent ne'er-do-wells?

Like Dr. Peterson, and this part is true, I travel entirely too much for work, and have little down-time to entertain games of Meanie or No Meanie. Besides, how unfair would that be to the children, indulging in petty small talk when the greater good is at stake!

[_Doctor Scratch]

More succinctly, perhaps, that no Christian would refuse, for any money, to stop calling the Devil the Devil.

QFT.