Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_Dr Moore]

The church will carry out its mission with or without Blake Ostler. No worries there.

I don't think we were discussing whether God or the church could do their thing without Blake.

You brought up Blake Ostler's expansion theory as a sort of loophole to believe in Book of Mormon historicity in the face of so much contrary evidence. Ostler's expansion theory is interesting. But it is unsound because it requires us to ignore the first-hand testimony of Joseph Smith, for one, making it a non starter before we even consider the historical and textual analysis. Joseph would have excommunicated Ostler for claiming that he expanded on the pure, ancient, correctly translated, true and faithful narrative with his own stuff. Sorry MG, but you can't have tails you win heads I lose again. Either Ostler's theory is valid, or it isn't. Just throwing it out there to say "there's still a chance" is the very kind of thing that tips the hand of deception by church leaders past and present. Pick a lane and commit to it, please, or stop wasting time.

But, again in the spirit of generosity, if you have a very good reason for thinking so highly of Ostler's expansion theory -- which you obviously must, since you pulled it out in response to my statement about being 100% certain the Book of Mormon is not an ancient historical record -- then please, MG, by all means, do please share those reasons!!! Don't discredit your conviction by changing the subject so quickly.

And on that note, please do try to stay on point as I am having a hard time knowing if you're just here to waste people's time. For what it's worth, I strongly believe that honest answers to honest questions do not look like feathery whisps running around corners to bring out new surprises.

[_Lemmie]

From page 78, where Mentalgymnast began responding to himself about his own chiasmus conjecture, to the end of this thread is really a separate discussion than the OP. Considering how many views this thread has and how important the topic is, would the OP consider asking mods to break off that section and make it a separate topic?

I ask because Kishkumen and others have recently made some interesting posts re: the OP topic that deserve not to be swallowed up in mg’s “trolling for Mormon Jesus” technique* (which I fully admit I have contributed to myself. Mea culpa.)

(*based on his own admission:
”Believe it or not, periodic participation on this board (then jumping off for a while) actually increases my faith and testimony in the truth claims and mission of the CofJCofLDS.”)


For example, re: Kishkumen’s first post this year:

Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.

Is anyone curious about that email from BYU? Not asking for the author Kish, but WOW. That seems like quite the email to receive. Any further details you could add would be fascinating.

And then this:

Did anything of substance ever come of any of this? Or was it decided that, after all, we still don't have any modern source(s) for the Book of Mormon for sure other than Smith's imagination? Is anyone still doing an studies and comparisons and analysis?

Nothing that I know of yet. The best work of this kind is actually William Davis’ work on John Bunyan’s influence on the Book of Mormon. In many ways, I think his work is much more significant than the discovery of The Late War.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31734&start=1575&p=1200845&view=show#p1200845

I’ve read William Davis’ 2012 article in the LA Review of Books written by William Davis that discusses the relationship between Bunyan's writings and the Book of Mormon, it was fascinating, so thanks for the reminder, Kishkumen.

(here's an excerpt from that article:)

...In fact, based on my years of extensive research and discoveries, Holy War provides what may be the most comprehensive collection of parallel narratives bridging the Book of Mormon to Bunyan’s texts: battles between light- and dark-skinned combatants to the point of annihilation, siege warfare and battle strategies, seditious factions and civil strife, secret cabals attempting to seize government control, righteous men who are heroic captains of war, and even a personal visitation of Jesus Christ and his establishment of a righteous society.

The parallel narratives are ubiquitous and systemic, appearing with sustained consistency throughout the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, reading the Book of Mormon is tantamount to reading John Bunyan’s many works condensed into a single volume.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/hid ... f-mormon/#

William Davis’ dissertation was on the oral performance aspect of the Book of Mormon, which was discussed briefly in this thread.

Has William Davis, or anyone else written further on this connection between the Book of Mormon and Bunyan’s work?

[_Maksutov]

MG, let me just say that as far as practicing the spirit and letter of the prescribed Mormon path, I am a highly credible witness with over 40 years of dedicated hands on experience. And I am currently an active member with both eyes open looking for truth, wherever it lives.

Thanks for that. May I ask one more question?

Is Jesus Christ still part of your open eyed search for truth?

Regards,
MG

I love this move. Classic cult flip. I've seen it in everything from JWs to Children of God and even among the FLDS. "Let's get you to throw away your brain for my scriptural sock puppet as per my latest urges/revelation."

Cults hate objective evidence, love the feels. All of them had plenty to hide and deceitfulness up the wazoo. But cuz it's for Jesus it's all good. Cognitive dissonance? Just keep on flipping, dazzle them with your mindless and pointless gyrations, what else have you got?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

7) Confuse your opponent with questions, always questions. The questions need not be relevant. The goal is to get your opponent off their game, and preventing your opponent from making their point. Think Endless Recursion through Irrelevant Questions. Also, do not respond to their leading questions.

[_fetchface]

I’ve read William Davis’ 2012 article in the LA Review of Books written by William Davis that discusses the relationship between Bunyan's writings and the Book of Mormon, it was fascinating, so thanks for the reminder, Kishkumen.

(here's an excerpt from that article:)

...In fact, based on my years of extensive research and discoveries, Holy War provides what may be the most comprehensive collection of parallel narratives bridging the Book of Mormon to Bunyan’s texts: battles between light- and dark-skinned combatants to the point of annihilation, siege warfare and battle strategies, seditious factions and civil strife, secret cabals attempting to seize government control, righteous men who are heroic captains of war, and even a personal visitation of Jesus Christ and his establishment of a righteous society.

The parallel narratives are ubiquitous and systemic, appearing with sustained consistency throughout the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, reading the Book of Mormon is tantamount to reading John Bunyan’s many works condensed into a single volume.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/hid ... f-mormon/#

William Davis’ dissertation was on the oral performance aspect of the Book of Mormon, which was discussed briefly in this thread.

Has William Davis, or anyone else written further on this connection between the Book of Mormon and Bunyan’s work?

I remember when I read Pilgrim's Progress how very Book of Mormony a lot of the passages and ideas in there were. I guess maybe I'll have to give Holy War a go. It might be interesting.

All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.

[_Kishkumen]

William Davis’ book should be coming out very soon. I am eager to read his latest work.

[_Lemmie]

William Davis’ book should be coming out very soon. I am eager to read his latest work.

Thanks for the news, looking forward to it!

[_DoubtingThomas]

Believe it or not, periodic participation on this board (then jumping off for a while) actually increases my faith and testimony in the truth claims and mission of the CofJCofLDS.

Seriously? Does your bishop know that you like to argue with ex-mormons?

[_mentalgymnast]

All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.

What are the pressing concerns of today you're referring to?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.

What are the pressing concerns of today you're referring to?

I would argue that many of the "pressing concerns" of the 1830's are very similar to those we have today.

For example, "Is there a God?"

Regards,
MG