Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

[_EAllusion]

Remember Stuff White People Like?

https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/

The central conceit of the blog was a joke that "white culture" is the culture of a particular affluent, liberal subculture that is predominantly white. Mostly what then would be called "hipsters."

Is that white culture? Is this what we're fighting for with, uh, our fellow neo-Nazis?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Bumping for Ajax because I think this is an important conversation to have.

- Doc

There's nothing left to say. Wanting to see your race/tribe or even children survive and prosper is a fundamental human emotion that predates the Bible. The only time it's considered morally wrong is if you're white. I think this view is morally wrong.

I’ll try for a third time. Why don't we start with what's right about your position so I can address it rather than end up chasing ghosts?

- Doc

[_ajax18]

I’ll try for a third time. Why don't we start with what's right about your position so I can address it rather than end up chasing ghosts?

- Doc

Then you can start by answering these two questions, or better yet, make EAllusion answer these questions.

If a black person wanted to secure the existence or future of the negro race does that make him a black supremacist?

If a Hispanic person wants to preserve the future existence of the latino race and latin culture, does that make him a Hispanic supremacist equal to Hitler?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I find it absolutely bizarre that Ajax18 holds a position he can’t explain. He has to frame it in terms of the Other rather than the Self.

- Doc “low key Nats fan since 2005” DC4Me

[_Gunnar]

While I agree with you that this is largely true, I still think that environment is far from insignificant. Yet I also think some people are more malleable to environmental influences than others, but this is, again, subject to one's biology.

I never meant to give the impression that I thought environment was insignificant.

I didn't really think you meant to give that impression. Thanks for confirming that.

But here's the thing: two people can have the exact same thing happen to them, but can react in diametrically opposed ways. What is the difference? Why isn't the outcome of this environmental influence the same in all cases?

Biology, of course, like you said, plus differences in prior environmental influences they may have had! That's why I said that some people are more malleable to environmental influences that others. It is not very often that two or more diametrically opposed reactions to the same environmental influence are equally good. The more malleable individual is more likely to react the way that best fits the environmental influence.

[_Some Schmo]

If a black person wanted to secure the existence or future of the negro race does that make him a black supremacist?

If a Hispanic person wants to preserve the future existence of the latino race and latin culture, does that make him a Hispanic supremacist equal to Hitler?

ajax, you said something up-thread about "whatever racism means."

Your hyper-focus on race is what racism is. It's not that difficult. Wanting to secure the future of a particular race as opposed to securing the future of humanity makes you a racist, no matter what your heritage is.

Why do you find this concept so difficult?

[_Gunnar]

I’ll try for a third time. Why don't we start with what's right about your position so I can address it rather than end up chasing ghosts?

- Doc

Then you can start by answering these two questions, or better yet, make EAllusion answer these questions.

If a black person wanted to secure the existence or future of the negro race does that make him a black supremacist?

If a Hispanic person wants to preserve the future existence of the latino race and latin culture, does that make him a Hispanic supremacist equal to Hitler?

I think Schmo gave perfectly valid answers to your questions.

No, what's morally wrong is focusing on your own race for advancement at the expense of everyone else.

ajax, you said something up-thread about "whatever racism means."

Your hyper-focus on race is what racism is. It's not that difficult. Wanting to secure the future of a particular race as opposed to securing the future of humanity makes you a racist, no matter what your heritage is.

Why do you find this concept so difficult?

[_honorentheos]

If a black person wanted to secure the existence or future of the negro race does that make him a black supremacist?

If a Hispanic person wants to preserve the future existence of the latino race and latin culture, does that make him a Hispanic supremacist equal to Hitler?

ajax, you said something up-thread about "whatever racism means."

Your hyper-focus on race is what racism is. It's not that difficult. Wanting to secure the future of a particular race as opposed to securing the future of humanity makes you a racist, no matter what your heritage is.

Why do you find this concept so difficult?

Well put.

It seems ajax is unfamiliar with human moral development. I'm guessing he'd agree that a person who failed to develop a theory of other minds as a child, or never develops the ability to empathize with others, is not justified if they take what they want or hurt others with no regard since according to their own development there is no reasonable need to be concerned with the well-being and needs of others. If a person fails to develop a sense of their place in the universe that reframes the narcissism of the infant we don't excuse the expressions of ego that turn to criminal behaviors simply because that person developed in a way that resulted in their being poorly adapted to being a member of a broader society. So why is he ok with the failure to develop an understanding of the human condition that recognizes race as a constructed, artificial means of defining who it's ok to support and who one should oppose and put down? Failure to develop the means to see oneself in all of humanity is a failure of development, not an excuse for bad behavior.

[Guest]

Though I no longer consider myself strongly conservative, and consider myself leaning more towards progressive and liberal, I can understand why you consider yourself conservative, though I agree with you far more often than not. I very seriously doubt, however, that the likes of subgenius and ajax would agree that you even remotely conservative! I imagine (and hope) that you and your liberal brother are not so different from each other that you no longer like and respect each other.

Well, it seems clear that my views are not entirely compatible with what Americans tend to mean when they use the word "conservative" but my contention is that most Americans are clueless on the subject, and the Overton Window in this country is so far right, the left edge is the actual center.

I agree. That's why I said I understand why you consider yourself a conservative. Your version of conservatism makes much more sense to me than what Trumpism and the hard right considers conservatism.

What people like ajax and subs say about conservatism are the ravings of the right-wing lunatics, not truly conservative sentiment. Limited government/fiscal responsibility means lean, efficient agencies for necessary services, not opting to skip providing those services at all. There's a big difference between conservative and douchy, except in America.

A big yup to that!

My brother thinks I should call myself a liberal, given what I think and where I live (and incidentally, he's my best friend). I can't do it. I refuse to buy into the cheap American version of conservatism.

I'm glad I imagined correctly about how you and your brother feel about each other!

[_Gunnar]

My desire to secure the existence or future for children does not in any way depend on what their color, race or cultural background is.

Does it depend on whether you made these children yourself or not?

Obviously my own children and grandchildren are dearer to me than anyone else's, but not just because they just happen to be my biological offspring. If they were adopted children of some other race or culture, or if any of my grandchildren were of mixed race because one or more of my children married someone of another race or culture, they would be just as precious to me.