On Taking on Holocaust Deniers

[_Chap]

They never will define what the Holocaust is

Really? It's simply a term used by many people (but not me) to refer to the general phenomenon of the murder (by various means) of large numbers of European Jews, principally as a result of the activities of the Germans and their allies, in the later part of WWII. That's not a definition, it's just an unexceptionable description of how the word is used.

I appreciate you attempting to define “The Holocaust” - you are braver and more intellectually honest than the OP.

Don’t you find it a bit odd that the ancient Greek word for “burnt sacrifice” now refers to the deaths of Jews, and only Jews, during WWII?

I made it quite clear that I was not trying to give a definition of the word 'Holocaust', merely to explain the sense in which it seems to be generally used in the context of discussions such as this one. There is a difference.

I have also told you that I don't like using the term 'Holocaust' to refer to the deliberate seeking out and killing of European Jews in the later stages of WWII. Your question should be addressed to someone else.

(My reason for not liking the term is that its ancient usage and etymology referred to a religious sacrifice to a deity, and that seems to me inappropriate as a term for the deliberate seeking out and killing of members of a religion-ethnic group. If I did feel the need for a one-word label, which I don't, I'd go with 'Shoah", from שואה, the Hebrew word for 'catastrophe'.]

What's your problem with that? That the alleged murder never happened? if so, the word used is hardly the main issue, is it?

Generally, deaths during wartime - especially from disease, starvation, and exposure are not called “murder”.

I would say that the fact that there was no systematic extermination of Jews in Germany is the main issue.

Well yes, the systematic extermination of Jews did not take place in Germany. Hitler was too smart not to shield the civilian population of Germany from seeing the ultimate consequences of the hatred of Jews he encouraged. So he had it done elsewhere, as for instance in Poland. I don't think that the location makes much difference, though.

This knowing causation of civilian deaths in wartime as a result of warlike acts such as the bombing of enemy cities is an act of dubious moral status. It is, however, hard to see how the Axis powers in Europe and East Asia could have been defeated without acts likely to lead to large amounts of civilian deaths.

Those acts are different in kind from the deliberate seeking out by police or paramilitary or military forces of civilians under their control, who pose no military threat and who wish only to pass unnoticed and unmolested, but simply fall within some ethno-religious category defined by those in power as undesirable, and their subsequent killing for no other reason than to achieve the death of the people in question, quite apart from any military objective. We need a different description for such a very different kind of killing, and 'murder' (the deliberate killing of a person for a bad motive) seems quite appropriate.

[_Smokey]

I made it quite clear that I was not trying to give a definition of the word 'Holocaust', merely to explain the sense in which it seems to be generally used in the context of discussions such as this one. There is a difference.

I have also told you that I don't like using the term 'Holocaust' to refer to the deliberate seeking out and killing of European Jews in the later stages of WWII. Your question should be addressed to someone else.

It was. So far, no one will answer it. You’d think if you had strong enough beliefs in an event to call someone a “denier” you could at least define what they are denying.

Do you believe people should be jailed for “denying” the Holocaust happened the way the Soviet Union says it happened?

Well yes, the systematic extermination of Jews did not take place in Germany. Hitler was too smart not to shield the civilian population of Germany from seeing the ultimate consequences of the hatred of Jews he encouraged. So he had it done elsewhere, as for instance in Poland. I don't think that the location makes much difference, though.

The above paragraph is merely belief and not supported by any facts.

This knowing causation of civilian deaths in wartime as a result of warlike acts such as the bombing of enemy cities is an act of dubious moral status.

This did happen.

Those acts are different in kind from the deliberate seeking out by police or paramilitary or military forces of civilians under their control, who pose no military threat and who wish only to pass unnoticed and unmolested, but simply fall within some ethno-religious category defined by those in power as undesirable, and their subsequent killing for no other reason than to achieve the death of the people in question, quite apart from any military objective.

This is fantasy. It did not happen.

The imprisonment and/or deportation of enemy combatants in wartime is hardly a Shoah.

[_canpakes]

This knowing causation of civilian deaths in wartime as a result of warlike acts such as the bombing of enemy cities is an act of dubious moral status.

This did happen.

Indeed. Sourcing Wiki, since you'll predictably throw a tantrum about it:

"The Siege of Warsaw continued until September 29, 1939. On September 10 alone, the Luftwaffe conducted 17 bombing raids on the city;[15] three days later, 50 German planes attacked the city centre, targeting specifically Wola and Żoliborz. In total, some 30,000 people were killed,[15] and 10 percent of the city was destroyed.[4]".

Those acts are different in kind from the deliberate seeking out by police or paramilitary or military forces of civilians under their control, who pose no military threat and who wish only to pass unnoticed and unmolested, but simply fall within some ethno-religious category defined by those in power as undesirable, and their subsequent killing for no other reason than to achieve the death of the people in question, quite apart from any military objective.

This is fantasy. It did not happen.

Indeed it did happen.

"The Germans closed the Warsaw Ghetto to the outside world on November 15, 1940.[16] The wall around it was 3 m (9.8 ft) high and topped with barbed wire. Escapees were shot on sight. German policemen from Battalion 61 used to hold victory parties on the days when a large number of prisoners were shot at the ghetto fence.[25] The borders of the ghetto changed and its overall area was gradually reduced, as the captive population was decreased by outbreaks of infectious diseases, mass hunger, and regular executions.[21] ...

"During the first year and a half, thousands of Polish Jews as well as some Romani people from smaller towns and the countryside were brought into the Ghetto. Nevertheless, the typhus epidemics and starvation kept the inhabitants at about the same number.[38] An average daily food ration in 1941 for Jews in Warsaw was limited to 184 calories, compared to 699 calories allowed for the gentile Poles and 2,613 calories for the Germans.[39] In August, the rations fell to 177 calories per person. ...

"Approximately 100,000 Ghetto inmates had already died of hunger-related diseases and starvation before the mass deportations started in the summer of 1942. ... The ghettoised Jews were rounded up, street by street, under the guise of "resettlement", and marched to the Umschlagplatz holding area.[59] From there, they were sent aboard Holocaust trains to the Treblinka death camp, built in a forest 80 kilometres (50 mi) northeast of Warsaw.[60] ...

"The extermination of Jews by means of poisonous gases was carried out at Treblinka II under the auspices of Operation Reinhard, which also included Bełżec, Majdanek, and Sobibór death camps.[58] About 254,000 Warsaw Ghetto inmates (or at least 300,000 by different accounts) were sent to Treblinka during the Grossaktion Warschau, and murdered there between Tisha B'Av (July 23) and Yom Kippur (September 21) of 1942.[9] The ratio between Jews killed on the spot by Orpo and Sipo during roundups, and those deported was approximately 2 percent.[58]"

That's just one city area.

[_Smokey]

What in the “F” is a “Holocaust train”?

Is it like the Holocoaster?

[_canpakes]

What in the “F” is a “Holocaust train”?

Glad you asked.

"For eight weeks, the deportations of Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka continued on a daily basis via two shuttle trains: each transport carrying about 4,000 to 7,000 people crying for water; 100 people to a cattle truck. The first daily trains rolled into the camp early in the morning often after an overnight wait at a layover yard; and the second, in mid-afternoon.[62] Dr Janusz Korczak, a famed educator, went to Treblinka with his orphanage children in August 1942. He was offered a chance to escape by Polish friends and admirers, but he chose instead to share the fate of his life's work.[63]

All new arrivals were sent immediately to the undressing area by the Sonderkommando squad that managed the arrival platform, and from there to the gas chambers. The stripped victims were suffocated to death in batches of 200 with the use of monoxide gas. In September 1942, new gas chambers were built, which could kill as many as 3,000 people in just 2 hours. Civilians were forbidden to approach the camp area.[61] In the last two weeks of Großaktion Warschau ending on September 21, 1942, some 48,000 Warsaw Jews are deported to their deaths. The last transport with 2,200 victims from the Polish capital included the Jewish police involved with deportations, and their families.[64] In October 1942 the Jewish Combat Organization (ŻOB) was formed and tasked with opposing further deportations. It was led by 24 year–old Mordechai Anielewicz.[2] Meanwhile, between October 1942 and March 1943, Treblinka received transports of almost 20,000 foreign Jews from the German Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia via Theresienstadt, and from Bulgarian-occupied Thrace, Macedonia, and Pirot following an agreement with the Nazi-allied Bulgarian government.[65]"

[_subgenius]

What in the “F” is a “Holocaust train”?

Glad you asked.

...

imagine my surprise when you did not link to your pornhub channel.

[_canpakes]

imagine my surprise when you did not link to your pornhub channel.

Why are you watching my pornhub channel? : D

[_Smokey]

This is slave labour work till you die, swim till you die, crap hole, killed on arrival, death camp Novaky.

These are all drowning j*ws or SS officers and their families enjoying a day off of killing j*ws.

[_canpakes]

Look! Here’s another image of a pool in the labor camp!

[_canpakes]

Look how nice the Nazis were! Every death camp had a pool at it! Jewish folks were just dying to get in!!



(Sorry, no Holocaust denier images are allowed to have sources posted for them. Wink. ;)