On Taking on Holocaust Deniers

[_Chap]

There is probably very little chance that Smokey would ever watch the movie Denial, much less read the book on which it is based, even it were at no cost to him.

A clip that typifies the courtroom atmosphere and the barrister's examination of Irving (closely based on what actually took place in court) is available in this Youtube clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOm-nerS2eg

Perhaps Smokey might like to have a look?

Have you watched the clip, yet, Smokey?

[_canpakes]

Damn those Germans! Following their own law! They’re making NPC Smokey soooo mad for not being able to publically rant on about how millions of Jews are hiding out, pretending to be dead, in order to make him look foolish.

So sad.

[_Smokey]

Have you watched the clip, yet, Smokey?

Not yet, I’m currently working on a project called “Ex-Mormons get #blued”



I do have some posts to reply to and correct first, but I will watch and report back soon! Glad you clarified your support of jailing grandmothers for thought crimes! Very interesting!

[_canpakes]

Glad you clarified your support of jailing grandmothers for thought crimes! Very interesting!

Hey, go talk to the Germans. It’s their country and their law. You dig ‘em; go over there and help to change that law instead of hiding out here.

[_Chap]

Glad you clarified your support of jailing grandmothers for thought crimes! Very interesting!

Hey, go talk to the Germans. It’s their country and their law. You dig ‘'em; go over there and help to change that law instead of hiding out here.

To clarify: Admiring Hitler and disbelieving that the Nazis systematically set out to hunt down and kill Jews is not a crime in Germany. There are no 'thought crimes'.

What you can't do in Germany is walk around in public waving a swastika flag, and spend your time publishing books and articles in which you deny he Nazis systematically set out to hunt down and kill Jews. Wonder why Germans would make laws like that? Hmm ... that's a hard one!

See the summary of laws here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... al#Germany

[_Res Ipsa]

I wonder whether anyone on this thread has seen this film?

For those who are interested, it illustrates very well what it can be like if one has to face up to a real, live, well-informed 'Holocaust denier' (David Irving, in this case)- and what has to be done in order to disprove their claims.

Apart from the intrinsic interest of the theme, it is a very effectively presented courtroom drama. The American protagonist Deborah Lipstad finds the British court procedure strange at first ('I'm not bowing to the judge!'), but eventually comes to appreciate the way the system works, including the forensic skills of her bewigged barrister and his team.

Denial

Based on the acclaimed bookDenial: Holocaust History on Trial, DENIAL recounts Deborah E. Lipstadt’s (Academy Award® winner Rachel Weisz) legal battle for historical truth against David Irving (BAFTA nominee Timothy Spall), who accused her of libel when she declared him a Holocaust denier. In the English legal system, in cases of libel, the burden of proof is on the defendant, therefore it was up to Lipstadt and her legal team, led by Richard Rampton (Academy Award® nominee Tom Wilkinson), to prove the essential truth that the Holocaust occurred.

DENIAL is directed by Emmy Award® winner Mick Jackson (“Temple Grandin") and adapted for the screen by BAFTA and Academy Award® nominated writer David Hare (The Reader). Producers are Gary Foster and Russ Krasnoff.

Lipstad was targeted by Irving because of the book she published in 1994:

Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory

That links takes you to an Amazon page that offers you the chance to look at parts of the book.

I read the book. I didn’t know it had been made into a movie.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

You never see NatSocs demand a perfect number of people the Communists killed. Oh they throw around numbers, though. 100 million. 40 million. 5 million. It's all over the place. I don't see a problem with 6 million based off records and then an educated guess is agreed upon. Whether the true number is 4 million or 6 or 3 is irrelevant to me. The systematic liquidation of populations to seize control of industries and land ought to stop anyone of good conscience dead in their tracks.

Smoke Pole is fundamentally a garbage human being. Mormon man, priesthood holder, and Nazi.

- Doc

[_Res Ipsa]

Glad you clarified your support of jailing grandmothers for thought crimes! Very interesting!

Hey, go talk to the Germans. It’s their country and their law. You dig ‘'em; go over there and help to change that law instead of hiding out here.

Not singling you out, cp, but this common reaction to these laws bothers me quite a bit. In general, folks have no problem expressing disagreement with other country’s laws. Think of South Africa and apartheid as an example. Was your reaction to shrug and say hey, it’s their laws?

I’m pretty much a free speech absolutist. Yes, Germany has the right to pass its own laws. But I also have the right to criticize them. I think it’s wrong to jail grandmothers or anyone else for holocaust denial, and I do not support laws that do. I do think it’s appropriate to treat the holocaust with a kind of civil sacredness, just as we do with, for example, Arlington cemetery or the beaches of Normandy. But not to the point of depriving people of their freedom for speaking.

[Guest]

I’m pretty much a free speech absolutist. Yes, Germany has the right to pass its own laws. But I also have the right to criticize them. I think it’s wrong to jail grandmothers or anyone else for holocaust denial, and I do not support laws that do. I do think it’s appropriate to treat the holocaust with a kind of civil sacredness, just as we do with, for example, Arlington cemetery or the beaches of Normandy. But not to the point of depriving people of their freedom for speaking.

In general I agree with this and I think at the end of the day I wouldn't approach the problem as Germany does.

That said I can definitely see their side of the issue. I'm already deeply embarrassed and concerned about holocaust deniers in our own neck of the woods so I can't imagine the amplification of that one must feel when tackling the problem with all the additional historical baggage that the Germans deal with on the topic.

I also just wanted to chime in to say that I've really appreciated your contributions to the topic. You've been a great example here of how we should respond to disinformation. I've learned a lot and your reading recommendation up thread gave me a ton to chew on, so thanks!

[_canpakes]

Not singling you out, cp, but this common reaction to these laws bothers me quite a bit. In general, folks have no problem expressing disagreement with other country’s laws.

No worries, RI. I’m fair game here for anyone to single out or use as an example.

I am no fan of restrictions on free speech, either (and noting that Smokey’s reference was to “thought crime”, which is something quite different). I do have to respect the context of laws addressing this, though, as is the typical and accepted condition everywhere. Not all speech can be protected when context is regarded (ex., yelling ‘Fire!’ In a theatre).

Germany’s history imparts certain unusual and nearly unique conditions to the subject of free speech, and folks are certainly free to disagree with some or all of those laws. But that sort of protest is not best manifested by posting denialist tropes, denigrating caricatures and derogatory language aimed specifically at the people who were once subject to enough harm that such restrictions on free speech were deemed necessary in the first place.

Smokey is not protesting this woman’s situation so much as he is chagrined that he cannot promote the worst possible behavior against his fellow citizens, both within that jurisdiction as well as those not even within the borders affected by that law.