Self selection in conspiracy theorists

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Dr. Shades wrote:Okay, thanks.

But weren't conspiracy theorists the ones who uncovered Operation Paperclip and the Tuskeegee Experiments?

If so, remind me again why conspiracy theorists are bad?

Shades, I'd have to go back and review the history of both to comment on those two specifically. "Conspiracy theory" is one of those confusing labels that really ought to be replaced with a different term. It's confusing because there are real conspiracies. And it can be confusing because a "conspiracy theory" can be based on the actions of a single person. What bad about CT is that it is based on faulty reasoning that generally leads to false conclusions and accusations. And those accusations can and do end up harming real people.

The reliable way to prove the existence of a conspiracy is the way we prove the existence of anything else. The legal definition of a conspiracy is an agreement to do something illegal combined with one of the parties to the agreement take a substantial step to carry out the agreement. And you prove the existence of a conspiracy the same way you prove anything else -- through gathering and evaluating evidence. Watergate is a good example. Some guys get caught in a burglary of the DNC headquarters. You investigate why. Turns out they were hired. Who was that? Why did they hire guys to to break into DNC headquarters. You move from one fact to the next, and you end up with direct evidence that a group of guys in the White House agreed to do illegal things to help Nixon get re-elected. That's a conspiracy. The conclusion is arrived at by looking at all the evidence and seeing if the best explanation for what you've found is a conspiracy, whose existence is actually supported by the evidence you've found.

CT is like a God of the Gaps theory. Only instead of an all powerful God, it assumes an all powerful conspiracy. Conspiracy theorists don't try to gather all the evidence and find the best fit explanation. They hunt for anomalies -- things that they can't explain or that they don't think fit with a straightforward, best-fit explanation. Just as a God of the Gapper assumes that God is the explanation for something they can't explain, the CT'er assumes that intentional human action is the explanation. Once the CT'er finds enough of these "anomalies," it would require more than one person working in concert, and the Conspiracy Theory is, essentially complete. Note that there has been no attempt to actually discover evidence that the "anomalies" are in fact anomalous, that the anomaly was caused by deliberate human action, or that anyone agreed with anyone else to take action that resulted in the anomalies. The existence of the alleged "anomalies ", in and of itself, is proof to the CT'er of the existence of the conspiracy.

Once the CT'er concludes that the conspiracy exists, it's almost impossible to persuade them otherwise. They use exactly the same tactics that a mopologist uses. They assume a conspiracy exists, and then go through all sorts of contortions to dismiss evidence to the contrary -- even to the extent of claiming that evidence against the existence of a conspiracy actually proves how vast and strong and devious the conspiracy is.

And that's where the harm starts to arise. The members of the alleged conspiracy are target by the CT'er and demonized to the extent that believers in the CT harass, attack, or even kill the alleged members of the conspiracy. And this has become much more of a problem with the internet, where the CT'er can wind each other up non-stop just by typing on a keyboard. They can easily organize to harass targets, dox suspected conspiracy members, etc.

Just for a fun example, there is a whole new generation of flat earthers now. https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/us/flat- ... index.html You know the old Flat Earth Society -- that's just a front run by NASA to make people think flat earthers are crazy. NASA knows the truth -- the earth is flat and the moon landings were all faked. This corrupt government agency is withholding the truth from us.

And, at bottom, it results in a rejection in the notion of expertise. You can't trust NASA because they're hiding the truth. You can't trust NOAA because their lying about global warming to make money. Some yahoo on youtube is trusted more than folks who have spent their lives studying the same subject, because he can put together a slick video that mashes together a few incomplete facts, a bunch of misrepresented facts, and a few outright lies that go by fast enough that the average person has no time to exercise the requisite skepticism, let alone take the time to fact check.

So, year, I suspect it's the case that conspiracy theorists have been the first ones to assert the existence of an actual conspiracy. But that's kind of like the proverbial broken clock that's right twice a day. When everything is a conspiracy, you're bound to be right sometimes. But it ain't worth the cost of all the times you're wrong.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr. Shades,

Are you a 9/11 truther?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:Okay, thanks.

But weren't conspiracy theorists the ones who uncovered Operation Paperclip and the Tuskeegee Experiments?

If so, remind me again why conspiracy theorists are bad?


Shades, I'd have to go back and review the history of both to comment on those two specifically. "Conspiracy theory" is one of those confusing labels that really ought to be replaced with a different term. It's confusing because there are real conspiracies. And it can be confusing because a "conspiracy theory" can be based on the actions of a single person. What bad about CT is that it is based on faulty reasoning that generally leads to false conclusions and accusations. And those accusations can and do end up harming real people.

The reliable way to prove the existence of a conspiracy is the way we prove the existence of anything else. The legal definition of a conspiracy is an agreement to do something illegal combined with one of the parties to the agreement take a substantial step to carry out the agreement. And you prove the existence of a conspiracy the same way you prove anything else -- through gathering and evaluating evidence. Watergate is a good example. Some guys get caught in a burglary of the DNC headquarters. You investigate why. Turns out they were hired. Who was that? Why did they hire guys to to break into DNC headquarters. You move from one fact to the next, and you end up with direct evidence that a group of guys in the White House agreed to do illegal things to help Nixon get re-elected. That's a conspiracy. The conclusion is arrived at by looking at all the evidence and seeing if the best explanation for what you've found is a conspiracy, whose existence is actually supported by the evidence you've found.

CT is like a God of the Gaps theory. Only instead of an all powerful God, it assumes an all powerful conspiracy. Conspiracy theorists don't try to gather all the evidence and find the best fit explanation. They hunt for anomalies -- things that they can't explain or that they don't think fit with a straightforward, best-fit explanation. Just as a God of the Gapper assumes that God is the explanation for something they can't explain, the CT'er assumes that intentional human action is the explanation. Once the CT'er finds enough of these "anomalies," it would require more than one person working in concert, and the Conspiracy Theory is, essentially complete. Note that there has been no attempt to actually discover evidence that the "anomalies" are in fact anomalous, that the anomaly was caused by deliberate human action, or that anyone agreed with anyone else to take action that resulted in the anomalies. The existence of the alleged "anomalies ", in and of itself, is proof to the CT'er of the existence of the conspiracy.

Once the CT'er concludes that the conspiracy exists, it's almost impossible to persuade them otherwise. They use exactly the same tactics that a mopologist uses. They assume a conspiracy exists, and then go through all sorts of contortions to dismiss evidence to the contrary -- even to the extent of claiming that evidence against the existence of a conspiracy actually proves how vast and strong and devious the conspiracy is.

And that's where the harm starts to arise. The members of the alleged conspiracy are target by the CT'er and demonized to the extent that believers in the CT harass, attack, or even kill the alleged members of the conspiracy. And this has become much more of a problem with the internet, where the CT'er can wind each other up non-stop just by typing on a keyboard. They can easily organize to harass targets, dox suspected conspiracy members, etc.

Just for a fun example, there is a whole new generation of flat earthers now. https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/us/flat- ... index.html You know the old Flat Earth Society -- that's just a front run by NASA to make people think flat earthers are crazy. NASA knows the truth -- the earth is flat and the moon landings were all faked. This corrupt government agency is withholding the truth from us.

And, at bottom, it results in a rejection in the notion of expertise. You can't trust NASA because they're hiding the truth. You can't trust NOAA because their lying about global warming to make money. Some yahoo on youtube is trusted more than folks who have spent their lives studying the same subject, because he can put together a slick video that mashes together a few incomplete facts, a bunch of misrepresented facts, and a few outright lies that go by fast enough that the average person has no time to exercise the requisite skepticism, let alone take the time to fact check.

So, year, I suspect it's the case that conspiracy theorists have been the first ones to assert the existence of an actual conspiracy. But that's kind of like the proverbial broken clock that's right twice a day. When everything is a conspiracy, you're bound to be right sometimes. But it ain't worth the cost of all the times you're wrong.


Excellent summary. And typically with conspiracy theories there isn't any evidence to begin investigating. It's a bit like mopologetics and knowing the difference between something being possible vs being plausible. Is it plausible that the US and Soviet Union would be in a race to steal the most brilliant German military and scientific minds at the end of WWII? Umm, yeah, absolutely. Is it plausible that our government lies to us and is involved in shady covert operations? Of course. But it's a big leap in logic to conclude that our government rigged the WTC buildings with bombs and thermite while no one was looking and projected hologram planes over NYC because operation paperclip, or all of the world's astronomers over the past several hundred years along with every world government is lying about the shape of the Earth because....umm....they're trolling us? I'm not sure about the motive for that one.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Thanks for that, Res Ipsa. I appreciate your having taken the time.

But back to something you said previously,

I think the point of the paper is that people don't just wander in to online conspiracy forums and get sucked into conspiracy theories. "Conversion" to a conspiracy theory happens by some other mechanism, then they seek out online conspiracy forums.

In my opinion, that same rule applies to every other subreddit in the whole of reddit.com, not just the single one regarding conspiracies. . . wouldn't you agree?

DoctorCamNC4Me wrote:Dr. Shades,

Are you a 9/11 truther?

Yes.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Lemmie
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Lemmie »

eallusion:

The board's search engine was broken for data purposes,

It was? Why? Maybe I am misunderstanding. Do you mean it IS broken in general, or do you mean it WAS broken by someone who intentionally “broke” it, by disabling some aspect of it?

In any case, using the google search process bypasses that.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Lemmie wrote:
eallusion:

The board's search engine was broken for data purposes,

It was? Why? Maybe I am misunderstanding. Do you mean it IS broken in general, or do you mean it WAS broken by someone who intentionally “broke” it, by disabling some aspect of it?

The former. I for one would love to have it working properly again.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr. Shades wrote:
DoctorCamNC4Me wrote:Dr. Shades,

Are you a 9/11 truther?

Yes.


Do you have any sources you'd like someone like myself to read in order to understand your position better? I'm very solidly in the camp that the 9/11 attacks were done by Al-Qaeda, that the jets brought the towers down, and a jet flew into the Pentagon. So, because I respect you and your generally pragmatic worldview, I'm interested in your take on the 9/11 attacks, probably starting with a statement that clearly outlines your theory as to what happened from beginning to end. I certainly don't want to make any assumptions about your position because I'm sure there are all sorts of positions to be had with regard to 9/11.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Smokey
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Smokey »

Start with the Dancing Israelis.

Image
Dr Shades is Jason Gallentine
_Icarus
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Icarus »

DoctorCamNC4Me wrote:Dr. Shades,

Are you a 9/11 truther?
Yes.



Wait.

What?
"One of the hardest things for me to accept is the fact that Kevin Graham has blonde hair, blue eyes and an English last name. This ugly truth blows any arguments one might have for actual white supremacism out of the water. He's truly a disgrace." - Ajax
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Self selection in conspiracy theorists

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Do you have any sources you'd like someone like myself to read in order to understand your position better?

In my opinion, the photos and footage must be viewed and not merely read about in order to get an accurate appreciation of all the data. If I had to pick a single documentary that most comprehensively encapsulates my views on this topic, it'd be this one:

Loose Change 2nd Edition (HD) FULL MOVIE

So, because I respect you and your generally pragmatic worldview, I'm interested in your take on the 9/11 attacks, . . .

Thank you for giving me that courtesy instead of just calling me an idiot. I appreciate it.

. . . probably starting with a statement that clearly outlines your theory as to what happened from beginning to end.

"From beginning to end?" That would take a while, so let's just say I think controlled demolitions were placed in order to ensure that the hijackers' mission would be a success.

I certainly don't want to make any assumptions about your position because I'm sure there are all sorts of positions to be had with regard to 9/11.

Again, thanks.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
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