Self selection in conspiracy theorists

[_Chap]

I am a carpenter by trade, but I love messing around with steel. I have a welder and oxygen and acetylene tanks. I read online how to make a knife...so I thought I would give it a try. I cut some A-36 carbon steel to the shape I wanted, a large Bowie type shape. Because A-36 steel is soft, I tried to temper (harden) it by heating it, then emerging is water. I did this several times not really knowing what I was doing.

I did it wrong and the "knife" actually shattered (broke in a few pieces).

My point is heat does weird things the the "DNA"of steel.

Yup, certainly. People who have never worked with or studied steel(s) have no idea how complex its/their behaviour can be.

The key, of course, is that steel is not just continuous 'stuff' made by mixing ingredients together and letting them cool to make a lump of metal. There are two basic aspects to this:

1. A lump of steel when suitably prepared and looked at under a suitable microscope reveals itself as a mass of tiny metal crystals, sometimes with tiny bits of other stuff embedded. The properties of the steel - hardness, toughness, elasticity - depend on that crystal structure, on how the crystals stick together, and how each crystal behaves. Heating and cooling the steel in different ways and at different speeds can change the structure radically, and hence change the steel's properties - as you found.

2. As well as the way the crystals (putting it crudely) stick together as a coherent mass, the internal strength of the crystals is dependent, amongst other things, on tiny flaws called 'dislocations', which greatly reduce their strength. (Think of the way you can shift a big carpet by running a ruck from one side to another, whereas it would be much too difficult to drag it all at once if it was completely flat). If a piece of steel was just one perfect crystal, it would be astonishingly strong. But it's not ...

(I've said nothing specific about the influence of added carbon here. But I just wanted to give an idea of how complex this steel stuff is, and how dependent an sample is on its history - of heat treatment, working and so on.)

[_DarkHelmet]

Just highlighting this comment by Doc, regarding the design of the WTC towers and why their stability may have been compromised a bit after airliners smashed into them ...

According to MIT each floor system weighed about 3,200,000 pounds. The jets destroyed support columns, weakened support columns, and fire burning at around 800 degrees for, what, 45 to 60 minutes? In one of the towers you had multiple jacked up floors trying to shift weight of +/- 96,000,000 lbs of weight bearing downward.

"The buildings used high-strength, load-bearing perimeter steel columns which acted as Vierendeel trusses. Although the columns themselves were lightweight, they were spaced closely together, forming a strong, rigid wall structure. There were 59 perimeter columns, narrowly spaced, on each side of the buildings. In all, the perimeter walls of the towers were 210 feet (64 m) on each side, and the corners were beveled. The perimeter columns were designed to provide support for virtually all lateral loads (such as wind loads) and to share the gravity loads with the core columns."


That's a mighty big hole cut through such a vital component of the structure.

And videos that were taken that day show the remaining, intact perimeter columns bucking and failing seconds before the collapse started. Did the conspirators install something to pull the exterior columns inward a couple seconds before they set off the explosives?

When the perimeter columns finally failed the upper part of the building took a free fall of at least 10-20 feet before hitting the floor below it. Truthers don't appreciate the amount of energy that was released when that section of the building began falling. The floor trusses were not designed to put up any kind of resistance to a force of that magnitude slamming into each floor. There is no need for explosives when you have a sledgehammer like that coming down on the building.

And regarding the "jet fuel can't melt steel" argument, as everyone has said since 2001, the beams didn't need to melt. Also, the fires were fueled by more than just jet fuel. The buildings weren't empty. They were filled with paper, furniture, drapes, etc. Those fires were hot.

[_Maksutov]

I love how this thread demonstrates the OP.

[_Markk]

Yup, certainly. People who have never worked with or studied steel(s) have no idea how complex its/their behaviour can be.

The key, of course, is that steel is not just continuous 'stuff' made by mixing ingredients together and letting them cool to make a lump of metal. There are two basic aspects to this:

1. A lump of steel when suitably prepared and looked at under a suitable microscope reveals itself as a mass of tiny metal crystals, sometimes with tiny bits of other stuff embedded. The properties of the steel - hardness, toughness, elasticity - depend on that crystal structure, on how the crystals stick together, and how each crystal behaves. Heating and cooling the steel in different ways and at different speeds can change the structure radically, and hence change the steel's properties - as you found.

2. As well as the way the crystals (putting it crudely) stick together as a coherent mass, the internal strength of the crystals is dependent, amongst other things, on tiny flaws called 'dislocations', which greatly reduce their strength. (Think of the way you can shift a big carpet by running a ruck from one side to another, whereas it would be much too difficult to drag it all at once if it was completely flat). If a piece of steel was just one perfect crystal, it would be astonishingly strong. But it's not ...

(I've said nothing specific about the influence of added carbon here. But I just wanted to give an idea of how complex this steel stuff is, and how dependent an sample is on its history - of heat treatment, working and so on.)

I have managed, more than I can remember, many structural steel retrofits, and even a few 100% steel structures. In regards to your very informative post, the inspection process is really pain staking to say the least, especially on a high end public works or goverment project.

All full pin welds, by code, are required to be either x-rayed of U.T.'ed. Depending on the weather the steel may need to be "pre heated". There are, who knows how many, different kinds of welding rods/wire. If not prepped correctly the weld may fail.

Steels not hard as folks think. In the old days, before OSHA outlawed it, we use to "shoot" wood nailers to steel I beams with a power actuated gun...basically a pistol with 22 cal. rounds that shoots harder steel pin's through the steel like a nail into wood. Also holes in steel are generally punched and not drilled in fab shops, and is not cut into small shapes, but snapped with a "break machine."

[_Lemmie]

I love how this thread demonstrates the OP.

I thought this was interesting...

The users were not as concentrated on one side of the political spectrum as people might expect. Nor did we find more anxiety in their posts, compared with other users.

Our previous research also indicated online conspiracy theorists are more diverse and ordinary than most people assume.

That surprised me a little. Apparently, you never really know in advance who the theorists are, also as this thread demonstrated.

Although this at the end is a little worrisome...

Explore further:

Belief in conspiracy theories makes people more likely to engage in low-level crime

Not to worry anyone, but maybe we should keep an eye on, um, some posters.....

[_canpakes]

And videos that were taken that day show the remaining, intact perimeter columns bucking and failing seconds before the collapse started.

Exactly true. And folks watching this on TV witnessed this in real time. It was probably the most heart-wrenching moment to see because even as quickly as that buckling occurred, it was still immediately perceptible and understood within that fraction of a second that all hope for saving anyone left in the building was removed, and that what was left to witness in the next moment was inevitable and horrifying.

To attribute this moment to the machinations of clever demolition experts is to unjustly blunt the magnitude and despair of the true cause and the victims caught within it. In my own opinion, anyway.

[_Maksutov]

Okay, thanks.

But weren't conspiracy theorists the ones who uncovered Operation Paperclip and the Tuskeegee Experiments?

If so, remind me again why conspiracy theorists are bad?

The Church Committee is different from QAnon and Alex Jones. Just sayin'.

Mormonism is a conspiracy theory. You can see the author of the conspiracy as God or Satan but they are using science to mislead us into believing that the Americas were NOT full of Nephites and Lamanites and Jaredites and that scrying, dowsing and channeling are actually pseudoscience if not frauds.

[Guest]

Steels not hard as folks think. In the old days, before OSHA outlawed it, we use to "shoot" wood nailers to steel I beams with a power actuated gun...basically a pistol with 22 cal. rounds that shoots harder steel pin's through the steel like a nail into wood. Also holes in steel are generally punched and not drilled in fab shops, and is not cut into small shapes, but snapped with a "break machine."

Fascinating, Markk! Every time I talk to someone who does hands-on technical work I learn interesting things. Sometimes I say to myself "Yeah, I suppose it would be like that because <stuff I know>...", but then I ask myself "So why have you never thought of that, then?"

And that takes us to the point made earlier: basic science applied to the complexities of the real world can tell us what can or can't take place if, and only if, we have a sufficient grasp of all the physical processes that are interacting with one another in whatever is happening. Often we don't, particularly if we are talking about complex and more or less unprecedented events. And 9/11 was one of those cases.

[_Dr. Shades]

To attribute this moment to the machinations of clever demolition experts is to unjustly blunt the magnitude and despair of the true cause and the victims caught within it.

How so?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

To attribute this moment to the machinations of clever demolition experts is to unjustly blunt the magnitude and despair of the true cause and the victims caught within it.

How so?

I'd be interested in you explaining your 9/11 CT positions more than you asking other posters to explain their emotional reactions to the terrorist attacks. You've gone essentially silent, and it'd be nice to see someone that most of us respect actually engage the topic thoughtfully so we can have a decent conversation about the incident and your beliefs vis a vis what occurred.

- Doc