Smokey wrote:All Jews are Israelites. Not all Israelites are Jews. Lehi’s genealogy is important, despite your unreliable say so, and because Jews are descendants of the tribe of Judah he cannot in any universe be called a Jew. This is basic, Children’s Bible stuff here.
Smokey, please post your data regarding Lehi’s family line. Let’s dive into this.
The Mulekites = tribe of Judah and outnumbered the Nephites
Zorum - married and his children were numbered with the Nephites as the supposed colonizers with Lehi and his family. Lived in Jerusalem in the Kingdom of Judah. Unknown tribe.
Ishmael - all Nephites and Lamanites are descendants of Ishmael as his family was the breeding stock of the Book of Mormon narrative. Unknown tribe. Mormon legend has it Smith taught Ismael was of Ephraim but that isn't in the text.
Jesus = descended from...oh! Yeah, that's right, the king of Israel, David. And he was of what tribe again? Judah you say? Hmm.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
To Gad's point, the Book of Mormon is not interested in the distinctions Smokey attempts to make about the history of the Jewish people or the Bible.
1 Nephi 13
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they (the settlers from England to the Americas, and no other European settlers to the Americas...uh, wait, what about...well. Anywho) did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them. And the angel said unto me:
“Knowest thou the meaning of the book?”
And I said unto him:
“I know not.”
And he said:
“Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew.”
And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me:
“The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.”
And the angel of the Lord said unto me:
“Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God. Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.
And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.”
Keep in mind this is the angel of the Lord tell Nephi that
a) the Jews very much preceded Christianity,
b) the Bible was their record given in pure form to the gentiles who, through the Catholic Church ended up corrupting it because that's just how things work
c) the prophecies and promises in the Bible are the same as were given to Nephi in the Brass Plates and contain the promises made to Israel. Who was in the Brass Plates? Isaiah. And who did Isaiah prophecy about? The kingdom of Judah in which he lived.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
2 Nephi 33:8 wrote:I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.
Poor NPC Smokes. Bad at neo-naziism, bad at history, bad at Mormonism.
He will just argue Nephi doesn't identify as a Jew. It isn't relevant, though. The Book of Mormon refers to Isaiah as one of the most important prophets in the Brass Plates. He was from the kingdom of Judah, and the angel describes the content of the brass plates as containing the promises and covenants between God and the house of Israel. It puts Smokey in a bind because the Book of Mormon clearly isn't interested in his attempt to separate Judah from Israel, considers the Bible to have been pure when it processed from the mouth of a Jew to the gentiles, and the majority of people in the Book of Mormon were from Judah via Mulek's party.
He has a lot of problems to deal with in his attempt to revise the Book of Mormon to his anti-Semitic agenda.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
You'll also notice he left King David, King Solomon, and Jesus off his list when trying to make the case the Bible wasn't about the ancestors of the Jewish people even though they are the most important figures in the Bible outside of the borrowed mythologies in the Penteteuch. Daniel? Isaiah? Mary the mother of Jesus? Jews.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
I posted that quote on page 4 of this thread 7+ hours ago, schizo. Take your meds.
Smokey wrote:Nephi clearly says that he is of the tribe of Joseph. This is in the very first book. Of course you haven’t read it, but it’s there plain as day in Chapter 6...
After being conquered again and again, of course the citizens of the kingdom of Judah were not all Jews, but were citizens of the kingdom of Judah in exactly the same way Nephi declared himself a Jew in his parting testimony: “I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.” (2 Ne. 33:8)
Smokey wrote:I posted that quote on page 4 of this thread 7+ hours ago, schizo. Take your meds.
Smokey wrote:Nephi clearly says that he is of the tribe of Joseph. This is in the very first book. Of course you haven’t read it, but it’s there plain as day in Chapter 6...
After being conquered again and again, of course the citizens of the kingdom of Judah were not all Jews, but were citizens of the kingdom of Judah in exactly the same way Nephi declared himself a Jew in his parting testimony: “I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.” (2 Ne. 33:8)
Cool, NPC Smokes. So he didn't call himself a citizen of Judah; he referred to himself as a Jew ("them", not "there"). That's what he's saying, although not what you want to imagine.
He certainly isn't saying that he's not a Jew.
So you are conceding that Lehi was a Jew, and that Jews colonized North America in 600 BC.
Next?
Last edited by Guest on Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Still not interested in the bigger issues that undermine his reading of Nephi but carry on, Smokey. Your worldview is such a terribly delicate unbalanced garbage dump of ideas I find it entertaining to watch you rolling around in it while trying to keep it from toppling over.
For example, how is that evidence illuminating the disproportionate number of ex-Mormon Jews who are so much more notable than the Christian anti-Mormon ministries coming Res asked for?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Smokey wrote:I posted that quote on page 4 of this thread 7+ hours ago, schizo. Take your meds.
Nephi clearly says that he is of the tribe of Joseph. This is in the very first book. Of course you haven’t read it, but it’s there plain as day in Chapter 6...
After being conquered again and again, of course the citizens of the kingdom of Judah were not all Jews, but were citizens of the kingdom of Judah in exactly the same way Nephi declared himself a Jew in his parting testimony: “I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.” (2 Ne. 33:8)
Cool, NPC Smokes. So he didn't call himself a citizen of Judah; he referred to himself as a Jew ("them", not "there"). That's what he's saying, although not what you want to imagine.
He certainly isn't saying that he's not a Jew.
So you are conceding that Lehi was a Jew, and that Jews colonized North America in 600 BC.
Next?
That's not what he's saying. He is trying to say Nephi didn't identify as a Jew and that is the most simple reading of that particular verse. It's not an impossible reading of the verse and possibly even the intended one given Smith was "translating" and phrased it that way because Smith was accustomed to speaking about the Jews in the third person.
It doesn't matter. There are major issues with his view that he won't answer that are so much more problematic that going back to this just gives him an argument he can make sound plausible when it's ignoring almost the entire Book of Mormon. Push him off that verse and into the rest of the book.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa