Shut the “F” Up, Hillary

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_Some Schmo
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _Some Schmo »

Markk wrote:Schmo...

In your opinion, what are the goals, besides getting Trump out of office, that the Democratic party is moving towards? I see a lot of offering free stuff towards people, but beyond that, what is their goal and what is the end system they are pushing towards.

I've heard them talk about much more than just offering people free stuff... but I don't consider myself a Democrat. I'm not going to speak on their behalf.

My goals happen to align with theirs right now: get Trump out of office. He's an incompetent and an embarrassment to this country, and he's doing too much to screw over this country's long term alliances. He's a menace and a traitor.

I'm an independent. That is my independent position. I used to consider myself a conservative until the right wing bastardized the term in this country. The GOP is not conservative. If I was a conservative like the GOP, I would whine about buying my children food and clothing, rather than knowing I have to and doing it efficiently.

One important area only the Democrats are addressing is climate change. I suppose that's handing out free stuff, too: free livable environment. And this speaks to a major difference between the two parties. I favor the Democrats these days because they favor science and facts.

Markk wrote:by the way good luck in the Super Bowl...every team I was going for are out of it so I just want a good game. And I officially give you permission to lift the ban on your avatar...I kinda miss it.

I was waiting till March to make the request to Shades to restore my user name. A bet's a bet. March will be a year.

I could start looking for a new avatar, however...
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_MissTish
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _MissTish »

Markk wrote:
MissTish wrote:Yes, so as per the link you found it's still a +3 for judges appointed by Democrats. My information was from December, yours is more recent but no changes yet. https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/2 ... urt-088833

Do you remember where you heard about the majority being conservative yesterday? I'm curious about things like that, in this era of 'fake news'



I would like to also ask you about your post up thread.

What has he gotten done that was 'in a conservative manner'? Was it the tariffs? The largest increase in debt and deficit in history? His disregard for the separation of powers and federalism? His authoritarian leanings? The anti immigration policy? The lack of respect for established institutions?

Other than appoint judges picked by the Federalist society I cannot think of much he has done that follows traditional conservative principles. But I'd like to hear your take.



I have no idea what station I heard it on, I drive all over So Ca, and yesterday I drove in San Bernardino County, Riverside County and San Diego County...aside from Sports talk, it could have been KFI (LA). Or a local conservative station in San Bernardino, I think 1290. Or KGO 600 San Diego...but I scan others when one goes out. I agree with we have to watch out for fake news...big time.

The thread I linked is a few weeks old so I am not sure if it happened in the past few days or not.

Off the top of my head... he has gotten a few SCJOTUS secured, he has got the economy pumping by lifting regulations and giving confidence to investors. He has gotten Mexico to deal with their border in CA and less illegal immigration here hopefully. Jobs, and less unemployment and less on goverment assistance. We are getting more and more less dependent of overseas energy...natural gas is booming. Isis has dwindled, at least for now. He has taken out two very bad terrorists. There are more here according to the white house...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/trump-admini ... lishments/

I understand you might disagree these things as being good things, but the millions that voted for him would appreciate these things, as would those that didn't vote for him but benefit from them, even if they don't admit it. You can dislike him all you want, and you can believe what he is getting done is wrong and bad...but non the less he is getting stuff done.

What, IYO, is the goal for the left...what is the general platform aside from talking point that come out every cycle by both sides? I am curious about what the end game is, again besides getting back power?

Thanks


I'm not sure what ths goal for the left is. Beyond Sanders the Democrat candidates aren't really the left in my humble opinion.

On the natural gas and crude oil, production of gas increased 35% under Obama, and crude oil production went up by 80%, so I'm not seeing this as directly causec by Trump policy.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemen ... tural-gas/

Perhaps you have some sources that show the direct role that Trump played on that? Or something showing substantial Trump era increases over the Obama era increases?

The economy was on the upswing pre-Trump, again, I'm not sure what Trump's direct role in that was. Same for unemployment. I will acknowledge that there are less people on government assistance, but without looking into it in detail I'd be unable to say if that was caused by just forcing people off without an improvement in their situation. Do you have any sources on that for me to look into?

My original question was about Trump's acting in a conservative manner. As a conservative, do you support the protectionism, tariffs, etc? And if so, how do you reconcile that with your conservative principles?
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people, Jeremy.- Super Hans

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.- H. L. Mencken
_Markk
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _Markk »

Perfume on my Mind wrote:I've heard them talk about much more than just offering people free stuff... but I don't consider myself a Democrat. I'm not going to speak on their behalf.

My goals happen to align with theirs right now: get Trump out of office. He's an incompetent and an embarrassment to this country, and he's doing too much to screw over this country's long term alliances. He's a menace and a traitor.

I'm an independent. That is my independent position. I used to consider myself a conservative until the right wing bastardized the term in this country. The GOP is not conservative. If I was a conservative like the GOP, I would whine about buying my children food and clothing, rather than knowing I have to and doing it efficiently.

One important area only the Democrats are addressing is climate change. I suppose that's handing out free stuff, too: free livable environment. And this speaks to a major difference between the two parties. I favor the Democrats these days because they favor science and facts.

You don't want to speak for them...but, you favor them? I am not sure I get that logic. I to am a Independent, I have voted for both Democrat's and republicans...but as I get older I am more right than ever.

As far as climate change they only address it to get votes, and then live like everyone else...you will have a hard time proving otherwise.

It is all about votes schmo...period...the current impeachment rant by the Democrats is nothing more than a free political add, and starting tomorrow Trump will get three days of free ad's.

Our bet was from him being sworn in, until this next state of the union address...I here by set you free, you have served your time.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Some Schmo
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _Some Schmo »

Markk wrote:You don't want to speak for them...but, you favor them? I am not sure I get that logic.

Why? Just because I lean a certain way at a particular point in time doesn't mean they fully represent me or will do everything I want them to do.

I also favor Jennifer Aniston, but wouldn't presume to speak on her behalf either.

I to am a Independent, I have voted for both Democrat's and republicans...but as I get older I am more right than ever.

I'm glad you call it "right" and not necessarily "conservative."

As far as climate change they only address it to get votes, and then live like everyone else...you will have a hard time proving otherwise.

The "living like everyone else" argument is damned ridiculous, and you should stop using it. We are all at the mercy of the current infrastructure. It's idiotic to expect individuals to change that on their own.

It's like me telling you, if you don't like government programs, quit asking the military to protect you, otherwise you're a damned hypocrite. That would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it?

At least Democrats acknowledge climate change. They aren't hiding their cowardly heads in the sand like Republicans are.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_canpakes
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _canpakes »

Markk wrote:As far as climate change they only address it to get votes,

Markk, why would a politician propose legislation on climate change, or legislation dismantling safeguards against it? Why would a politician support legislation to decrease the amount of cyanide in your tap water, or to allow the amount to increase? Why would a politician vote for stricter emissions controls, or to allow more sulphur and particulates to be released?

Given that all of these live or die by votes anyway, you taking umbrage over this concept while pretending that you and the politicians you favor are immune to or exempt from it, is nonsense. And once that fact is laid bare, you might go a level or two deeper and ask yourself why else these ideas are being offered up for a vote, and why you choose to support them or not.


Perfume on my Mind wrote:
Markk wrote:As far as climate change they only address it to get votes, and then live like everyone else...you will have a hard time proving otherwise.

The "living like everyone else" argument is damned ridiculous, and you should stop using it. We are all at the mercy of the current infrastructure. It's idiotic to expect individuals to change that on their own.

It's like me telling you, if you don't like government programs, quit asking the military to protect you, otherwise you're a damned hypocrite. That would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it?

Thanks, Schmo. This argument from many on the right is both disingenuous and asinine. I’m pretty sure that they know it - at least subconsciously - but far too many know better and regurgitate it anyway.

There’s no escaping the infrastructure that we exist within. I live 30 minutes from my place of work, and I would love nothing more than to ditch auto use for the commute, but there is no alternative. The irony is that if you were to try voting for installing a more comprehensive bus or light rail system to enable that, the idea would just be shot down by conservatives anyway. Imagine that. ; )

But I can still apply principles of energy efficiency by driving an older and smaller vehicle that uses less gas, and apply resource efficiency by not requiring that my ride is replaced with a new vehicle every few years or so.

I don’t know why so many conservatives can’t wrap their heads around how this works.
_subgenius
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _subgenius »

canpakes wrote:...I don’t know why so many conservatives can’t wrap their heads around how this works.

maybe the UAW could help explain it....
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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_canpakes
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _canpakes »

subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:...I don’t know why so many conservatives can’t wrap their heads around how this works.

maybe the UAW could help explain it....

To you, right? : )

We can ask a member to use small words for you.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _Some Schmo »

canpakes wrote:Thanks, Schmo. This argument from many on the right is both disingenuous and asinine. I’m pretty sure that they know it - at least subconsciously - but far too many know better and regurgitate it anyway.

I think you nailed the key word there: regurgitate.

I don't think Markk is necessarily dumb or anything, but I do think he's fallen into the partisan trap of regurgitating the arguments that sound good right up until you leave your echo chamber.

I had a buddy at work make a similar argument to me about socialism and if I thought it was so great, why don't I pay more taxes? I told him that if he hates the government running programs so much, I expect he'll never call the police if he has a problem. He had a moment where he realized how dumb the argument he was making was, and told me he'd never say it again.

I think right-wingers hear the talking points, regurgitate and have to be argued out of them before they realize how dumb they are.

I'll give right-wingers one thing: they are reliable little lemmings.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Markk
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _Markk »

Perfume on my Mind wrote:[
Why? Just because I lean a certain way at a particular point in time doesn't mean they fully represent me or will do everything I want them to do.

I also favor Jennifer Aniston, but wouldn't presume to speak on her behalf either.


Hey Schmo

It's not about how you lean, it is about your aggressive hate and condemnation for one side and not knowing what your side is about? Neither of of us speak on their behalf's, but I would think you would have a clue on what the current party you support stands for and as I asked " In your opinion, what are the goals, besides getting Trump out of office, that the Democratic party is moving towards?" I believe it is a fair and logical question...that is unless you don't vote. If that is the case then I guess I see another side of you.

I read this in another thread, and I genuinely laughed when I just read this, in light of what I read earlier in the quote below... you wrote...

"It's remarkable the ways people distract themselves in service of their partisanship. Absolutely remarkable. "

We all do it, I get that, but it is funny, and of all the folks here I think you will laugh also.

Schmo wrote...My goals happen to align with theirs right now: get Trump out of office. He's an incompetent and an embarrassment to this country, and he's doing too much to screw over this country's long term alliances. He's a menace and a traitor.


Most of that is just not true...in my opinion he is a arsehole, and acts like a baby, certainly a narcissist...but he is getting stuff done beyond my expectations, and like it or not is a leader, and, what i do appreciate he is not getting rich off these other countries like the Biden's, Clinton, and others, at least not, and hopefully not yet.

Most all politicians (and boss's, religious leaders, coaches...etc) are _____________ (fill in the blank), and have their negative issues...but it does not mean they cannot lead.

If you want a interesting read... https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... JxBJejIlcA I am currently reading it. How does a life time politician like Biden and Sanders, get millionaire rich, and their families make fortunes, as journeyman politicians? Lets be honest here Schmo...Washington is fueled by corruption in many aspects.

Trump is not a traitor, that is just a talking point that folks buy into, if he was a traitor, and there was actually proof of it, then charges of such would have lead the impeachment charges.

Gotta run, heading to the flea market

More later, I want to get to Tish's and the rest of your post.

take care
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_honorentheos
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Re: Shut the ____ Up, Hillary

Post by _honorentheos »

Markk wrote:In your opinion, what are the goals, besides getting Trump out of office, that the Democratic party is moving towards?"

I can't speak for Schmo, nor would he want me to, but I think there is a good underlying question to ask first of one's self, and then of the parties and candidates. What is the fundamental goal society should be moving towards?

in my opinion, many people who grew up during the cold war came to equate America with capitalism and the USSR with socialism. To some, the entire conversation is, "What makes the USA great? Capitalism. What motivated people to leave Europe from the 1600's to today to start a new life? Capitalism. Why did the USSR collapse while the USA continued and prospered into the 1990's? Capitalism. What is the biggest threat to the USA from within and without? People who would replace capitalism with socialism."

But that isn't true. Capitalism is a system of economics, and not an inherent characteristic of the United States. The cold war propaganda has caused a warping of many people's understanding of how our system of government works with a variety of economic policies that include capitalistic ones as well as socialistic ones to accomplish the goal of giving people a chance to achieve more than their birth-class might otherwise limit them to as their destiny.

Democracy and capitalism aren't synonyms. They are in different categories, not just two different things. Capitalism isn't a form of government, it's an economic system. Democracy isn't an economic system, it's a political system. It doesn't make sense to conflate the two.

What made the USA such a special place at it's founding in contrast to aristocratic Europe? Democracy. What motivated people to take the risks to themselves and their families to come here? The democratization of opportunity. The United States has never been a purely capitalistic society, and many times in our past the government has taken ownership of resources to then make them widely available so that a wide range of people and institutions could innovate and come up with successful new ways of doing things. That democratization of opportunity is what has been the tip of the spear of innovation in the US. Yes, it takes capital. Sometimes that capital has come from so-called capitalists. And sometimes it's owned and made available by the government. Often it included a combination of both.

In many ways, what made the American experiment successful is the ability to leave behind one's position at birth and find opportunities that wouldn't be available in a traditional hierarchical society like was the case in Europe. For example, my Mormon ancestors who came over from Britain were often 2nd or 3rd sons whose older brothers inherited the family land according to tradition. In England, Ireland and Scotland their options were limited. The promise of making a new life in the western United States where opportunities made the risks worth taking influenced their decision making, and their success in establishing businesses and farms throughout what is now Utah was made possible by there being land available they could cultivate, new business opportunities they could develop, and it didn't matter that their father wasn't of a certain class or their family had the wealth and connections to put up to support their business ventures. Coming to the United States was a way of shedding the restrictions of the old world that had become calcified into aristocratic hierarchical societies where a person's place at birth largely determined their destiny.

To my mind, the current split in politics in the US is one along lines of asking how important the democratization of opportunity is compared to protecting the interests of what to me has all the characteristics of a 21st Century aristocracy.

- Do we seek to ensure kids entering our school system, regardless of class and background, have opportunities to meet their potential? Or should kids whose parents have wealth and connections have more opportunities regardless of their own inherent intelligence, talent and ability?

- Do we seek to ensure innovators who have good ideas can find capital and pursue those innovations to keep propelling the US into the 21st Century? Or should access to wealth and the means of production be limited to those with connections and the right backgrounds?

- Do we seek to ensure a health problem or injury is something a person or family can recover from and get back on their feet again? Or should only those with wealth be able to weather misfortune without going bankrupt and destroying their family's futures?

- Do we believe individual liberty is best understood as applying the law equally to everyone? Or is individual liberty best understood as everyone should think like me and if they don't, they are morally degenerate?

- Do we believe that every one of us benefits from a healthy society, so we should contribute to social services that benefit society overall even if we don't directly see the connection to our own benefit? Or is it right to believe I should only have to contribute directly to aspects of society that I believe are directly benefiting me?

I favor democratization of opportunity. I believe a society that does so has the best chance of prospering because it best capitalizes on it's human resources. Smart kids born into all income levels including low income families become our next generation of geniuses rather than only having the pool of rich kids to draw from to form our next generation of great thinkers and innovators. I favor individual liberty in the form of equal application of the law. And I favor viewing the benefits of a healthy society being indirect rather than directly tied to only those programs and aspects of society where I directly withdraw. If I didn't have a child, I'd still be better off contributing to an education system where every kid is getting a top-tier education. Even if I don't use public transportation, I'm better off in a society where a good public transportation system is available. Even if I don't use public healthcare, I'm better off in a society where everyone can have access to basic healthcare-related needs. I don't need to take directly from a program to benefit from having contributed to that program. That applies to infrastructure, to parks and the preservation of opens spaces, to art and the sciences - I'm better of in a society where we all contribute to having public goods and services rather than only those who can afford them having access to such things.

Right now, the Democratic party is the most aligned with my values and beliefs regarding what makes for a good society. There are elements within the Democratic party that don't align with my view regarding the importance of democratization of opportunities that I don't support. I think there are elements in the left-wing of the party that are as happy to exert their own brand of authoritarian oppression as there are among right-wing elements in the US. But I don't think the extreme left has control of the Democrat party.

The Republican party is a mess, in my opinion. It lost any claim to be a conservative party with the election of Donald Trump. It has embraced non-conservative economic policies such as trade protections and tariffs, and shows no interest in managing the national debt load. But it seems very interested in entrenching a class system that has arisen as wealth inequality has become more and more exasperated over the last few decades. It's strange to watch the right claim to be honoring the founding fathers while erasing the very system of social order they were establishing in favor of the one they fought against. The tax code put in place by Trump and the Republicans is one that establishes an American aristocracy, make no mistake about that.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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