The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

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_Gunnar
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The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _Gunnar »

Republicans: There’s No Point in More Evidence, Trump Will Just Obstruct It
Republicans have spent the impeachment trial alternatively arguing that the House had not produced enough evidence to prove its case, and that more evidence is unnecessary. Last night, they introduced a novel new argument: It would be pointless to introduce more evidence, because the White House will simply block it in the courts. “A growing number of Republicans are pointing to President Donald Trump’s threat to invoke executive privilege in order to make their case against subpoenas sought by Democrats for key witnesses and documents,” reports CNN.

There are several remarkable things about this new rationale. First, Republicans have spent days lambasting Democrats for refusing to let the courts to exhaust every last Trump appeal. (Jay Sekulow: “The president’s opponents, in their rush to impeach, have refused to wait for judicial review.”) They deemed the House impeachment proceedings a “shoddy work product” for this reason, but are now prepared to argue that it’s too late and they can’t fix it.

Trump himself is arguing that the House had too few witnesses — because he blocked them! — but that the Senate should not try to get those witnesses, because “they had their chance.”

Second, the fatalistic assumption that Trump can block any new evidence is probably wrong. John Bolton, for one, has offered to testify (and, as a former White House employee, cannot be blocked). Some experts argue that, as a matter of law, the Senate is in a stronger position than the House to swiftly compel documents and testimony Trump has blocked. In any case, if the Senate wants to at least try to get more evidence, it can give the process a few weeks. There’s no reason to throw in the towel before even trying.

It is true, of course, that Trump will continue to withhold as much evidence as he can, as long as he can. But this raises a third point about his lack of transparency: Doesn’t it make Republican senators question his protestations of innocence? After all, Trump is very much not conceding that he pressured Ukraine to undertake ordered-up investigations. His defense does not merely say his actions don’t merit removal — it denies the key factual predicate of the articles of impeachment. Republicans in Congress have dutifully followed his argument, yet Trump is blocking all the relevant evidence. Doesn’t this bear upon his underlying guilt? Why is he withholding access to documents and witnesses that would presumably exculpate him?

And finally, bear in mind that refusing to cooperate with any investigation is one of the things Trump is charged with in one of the two articles of impeachment. Trump’s blanket rejection of any legitimate oversight role for Congress, and his calculation that he can withhold all evidence on every investigation of his administration and run out the clock is the second high crime.

Republican senators are saying the first crime hasn’t been sufficiently proven, but they can’t get the evidence that might prove it, because Trump will drag it out too long. Every Republican argument for refusing to convict Trump simply takes his bad faith as a background fact, and focuses all the scrutiny on the way other actors have dealt with it. What are you gonna do? The guy is obstructing Congress. Sure, we could try to get more testimony against John Gotti, but Gotti will probably just bribe or murder all the witnesses. Might as well end the trial quickly and vote not guilty.


Of course the Republicans really don't want to see any evidence that might strengthen the case against Trump. This is the bottom line. The more abundant and damning the evidence, the worse they will look when they go ahead and acquit him anyway, as they have effectively admitted they are hell bent on doing, no matter how damning the evidence against him.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

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_Gunnar
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _Gunnar »

And yet, Michael Moore Thinks There’s a Chance the Senate Could Convict Trump. It seems rather far fetched, I know, but Moore seems confident that there are at least 10 Republican Senators (including Mitt Romney) with enough genuine religious conviction and conscience who are deeply offended by Trump and what he has done, and would be glad to see him go, and another 10 from states with tight races who are who are worried that their support for Trump will hurt them in the next election or the one after that. There seems to be rather overwhelming public support for permitting witnesses and additional documents to be presented. The Senate just might yet be motivated by public demand to admit witnesses and additional evidence.

Michael Moore seems confident that if that happens (especially if Bolton testifies), Trump may be doomed. It shouldn't be too much longer before we find out, one way or the other.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_aussieguy55
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _aussieguy55 »

I was amazed to see Bill Crystal full of praise for Nancy Pelosi and Adam Schiff on MSNBC
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_ajax18
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _ajax18 »

Witnesses like John Bolton can be blocked by Executive privilege. But the House could have called the whistleblower if they wanted. Of course this would have exposed Adam Schiff so obviously they weren't going to do that.

They could have called people from the corrupt Ukrainian government that managed to steal over a billion in taxpayer funded foreign aid money to the Ukraine.

It's not the place of the Senate to retry this case. It's their job under the constitution to fix this egregious partisan error put forth by the House. But I would like to see a long drawn out senate trial including testimony from the everyone in the Biden family who has managed to enrich themselves through their father's position as vice president.

All they have to do is follow the money. How do Bidens sons go from the working class to jobs paying tens of millions of dollars to sit on a board while having no experience whatsoever? One wonders how so many elected officials seem to go from being commoners to being part of the 1% they falsely promise to tax so heavily.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Icarus
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _Icarus »

ajax18 wrote:Witnesses like John Bolton can be blocked by Executive privilege.


No he can't.


But the House could have called the whistleblower if they wanted.


For what purpose? The Whistleblower's claims were already corroborated by multiple eye witness accounts.

Of course this would have exposed Adam Schiff so obviously they weren't going to do that.


There is nothing to expose, as you're obviously chasing another idiotic FOX News talking point that has no basis in reality.

They could have called people from the corrupt Ukrainian government that managed to steal over a billion in taxpayer funded foreign aid money to the Ukraine.


What people, and who told you they stole a billion dollars? Alex Jones? You're coming off as very dumb right now.

It's not the place of the Senate to retry this case.


1. The fact that you think this was tried first in the House proves you're an idiot.

2. The Senate's job is to try the case as it is the only venue in which it can be tried. They swore and oath to be impartial jurors, but many of them are admitting that they're hearing this Democrat's case for the very first time and others were walking out of the room while they were making their case. That's not being impartial; it isn't even making a half-hearted attempt to be impartial. Republican senators have failed miserably to succeed in doing their basic duty because they care only about saving Trump from his own illegal and impeachable behavior.

It's their job under the constitution to fix this egregious partisan error put forth by the House.


No it isn't. That's a conclusion that seeks a premise that doesn't exist. There was no error put forth by the House.

I would like to see a long drawn out senate trial


No you wouldn't, because John Bolton's book already details the incident claiming Trump told him first hand that he wanted to withhold Ukraine funding until they announced investigations into Biden. That's breaking news as of today. What do you think that kind of first hand testimony will do if allowed on the Senate floor?

including testimony from the everyone in the Biden family who has managed to enrich themselves through their father's position as vice president.


This is just a lame effort to derail from Trump's crimes. Even if all the silly allegations against the Bidens are true, none of this vindicates Trump. This is like a man who murdered his wife and blames it on the fact that she allegedly slept with his brother. By your logic, the judge should allow the defense to call the brother to testify as if sleeping with his wife would in any way excuse his crime.

How do Bidens sons go from the working class to jobs paying tens of millions of dollars to sit on a board while having no experience whatsoever?


That never happened. You like to just make stuff up, or is more likely the case, uncritically regurgitate Alex Jones level nonsense. Hunter Biden served on the board of directors of Amtrak when he was appointed by President Bush back in 2006. Receiving a monthly salary "up to $50,000" per month isn't all that uncommon for companies that size, and it amounts to roughly a half million dollars per year, not "tens of millions." You don't appear to have the faintest clue what makes someone "qualified" to sit on a board. In the case of Burisma, they appointed several high profile names because they were trying to clean up their image.

But since you bring it up, no one has ever benefited financially from their Daddy's political position like the Trump kids.
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_ajax18
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _ajax18 »

But since you bring it up, no one has ever benefited financially from their Daddy's political position


No, not in Washington. Biden was dumb enough to brag about it. But of course we can't investigate Biden since he's running for president. Want immunity from political self enrichment? Run for President!

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... cutor.html
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_canpakes
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _canpakes »

ajax18 wrote:But of course we can't investigate Biden since he's running for president.

Given that there's no such prohibition (were you awake in 2016?), perhaps you meant to say that no-one is stupid enough to waste their money, time and reputation chasing a 'corruption charge' that has no basis in reality.
_moksha
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _moksha »

Gunnar wrote:Of course, the Republicans really don't want to see any evidence that might strengthen the case against Trump. This is the bottom line. The more abundant and damning the evidence, the worse they will look when they go ahead and acquit him anyway, as they have effectively admitted they are hell-bent on doing, no matter how damning the evidence against him.

This is a fairly good summary of the Republican position.
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_Gunnar
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _Gunnar »

Icarus wrote:2. The Senate's job is to try the case as it is the only venue in which it can be tried. They swore and oath to be impartial jurors, but many of them are admitting that they're hearing this Democrat's case for the very first time and others were walking out of the room while they were making their case. That's not being impartial; it isn't even making a half-hearted attempt to be impartial. Republican senators have failed miserably to succeed in doing their basic duty because they care only about saving Trump from his own illegal and impeachable behavior

This can't be overemphasized. Several GOP Senators (including Mitch McConnell and Linsey Graham--especially the latter) openly boasted to the Media they that would not even pretend to be impartial and fair. Yet, they all vowed under oath before the trial began that they would be. Were they lying to the Media, or were they lying when they took that oath? One or the other must true. If the latter is true, they are perjurers and deserve to be in jail!


Icarus wrote:
ajax18 wrote:including testimony from the everyone in the Biden family who has managed to enrich themselves through their father's position as vice president.


This is just a lame effort to derail from Trump's crimes. Even if all the silly allegations against the Bidens are true, none of this vindicates Trump. This is like a man who murdered his wife and blames it on the fact that she allegedly slept with his brother. By your logic, the judge should allow the defense to call the brother to testify as if sleeping with his wife would in any way excuse his crime.

This point can't be overemphasized either. Whether or not the allegations against the Bidens are true (which they are not, according to the preponderance of the evidence) has no bearing on the validity and credibility of the allegation against Trump. Arguing when caught doing something wrong that one should escape punishment by alleging that someone else is also guilty of wrongdoing is as childish and infantile as it gets!
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Gunnar
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Re: The Absurdity of Trump Defense Team's Argument

Post by _Gunnar »

The mendacity and absurdity of the Trump defense team's arguments is only becoming more obvious. I learned to today that Dershowitz is now arguing that even Trump's violation of his Oath of Office is not a legitimate impeachable offence. If even that is not impeachable, why even have or bother to administer the Oath of Office in the first place? For that matter, why bother to administer any Oath of Office to any elected public official, if violation of that oath incurs no legal penalties, and even allows them to stay in office?

It is becoming more and more obvious that they are, in effect, arguing that impeachment itself is inherently unconstitutional, despite the fact it is a remedy explicitly specified in the constitution for removal of corrupt officials, including the President himself. Or, in other words, the constitution itself is unconstitutional and violates itself!

If they get away with this, it sets a precedent that clears the way for any elected President to claim and assume all the powers and prerogatives of a king or absolute Tyrant like Kim Jong Un!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
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