The coronavirus spread updated in real time

[_Some Schmo]

That is why we have to be careful about starting the discussion with language like "hypochondriacs and drama queen types draining the system": the word "draining" takes it for granted that the loss of resources caused by a small minority of excessive users is so large that the system no longer has enough funds to do what it needs to to for other users. We simply don't know whether that is the case, and until we do we should use more judgement-free wording, if we want to make the best decisions possible in the real world.

Again... all great points.

And yet I still think there has to be a way to make people engaged, or invested in the system. There is something fundamentally wrong with making it completely free.

And I do think there should be some kind of health care incentive for taking care of yourself and seeking preventative treatment.

[_Chap]

There is something fundamentally wrong with making it completely free.

Please explain to me, with actual facts to back it up, exactly what that wrongness is.

And I hope you will be able to go further than saying, "Well, although the great majority of people will benefit greatly from a free system and will have the civic spirit not to misuse it, a few people may behave irresponsibly." To which my answer will be "So what? Overall, the generality of people will be much better off than they ever could be before, and money will not pour out of health care provision into making giant profits for insurance companies. If the price is a little irresponsible waste, I'm fine with that."

Remember when you do so that you are addressing a person who has lived under a 'free at point of use' system for his whole life. Indeed, had it not been for the care given to me when I had a serious childhood illness, that life would have been a lot shorter. My parents told me what it had been like before the National Health Service, when doctor's bills were a real worry, and people who could not afford treatment had to die without it. It sounded like a malignant fantasy, and I could not believe that people had ever been cruel and stupid enough to run the world that way.

there should be some kind of health care incentive for taking care of yourself and seeking preventative treatment.

Yes. It's called feeling a lot better, and not having to waste your time and energy being cured of stuff you did not need to get. Good health education and public awareness campaigns can push people in the right direction. Works for me, and pretty well everybody else I know. (A few people maybe not: but see above.) That's basically the reason why smoking has gone from being a widespread adult habit to a strictly minority pursuit; alcohol consumption amongst the young is also much less than in my youth, and many don't drink alcohol at all.

[_Some Schmo]

Please explain to me, with actual facts to back it up, exactly what that wrongness is.

And I hope you will be able to go further than saying, "Well, although the great majority of people will benefit greatly from a free system and will have the civic spirit not to misuse it, a few people may behave irresponsibly."

That is only a minor part of it. I believe that laws should be tailored to encourage personal responsibility.

Do you need facts to support why personal responsibility should be a general civic goal?

[_Some Schmo]

by the way, Chap, as I said, I had free health care too. Why do you suppose I have this opinion?

[_Some Schmo]

there should be some kind of health care incentive for taking care of yourself and seeking preventative treatment.

Yes. It's called feeling a lot better, and not having to waste your time and energy being cured of stuff you did not need to get.

That's a personal health incentive that anyone should have if they care about themselves. That has nothing to do with health care laws, which is what I'm talking about.

[_Chap]

I believe that laws should be tailored to encourage personal responsibility.

Sounds good, doesn't it? I mean, would anyone advocate personal irresponsibility? (The fact that nobody would flashes a warning light about your use of language). But what does it mean, exactly? That's more difficult.

Should people be personally responsible for providing their families with clean drinking water? Should people be personally responsible for providing their children with basic education? Should people be personally responsible for protecting their families from being robbed by organised crime? Should people be responsible for providing roads for their cars to drive on?

And what if they choose to exercise their personal responsibility by voting for a government that promises to give them universal health care free at the point of use? Have they morally degraded themselves by so doing?

[_Chap]

there should be some kind of health care incentive for taking care of yourself and seeking preventative treatment.

Yes. It's called feeling a lot better, and not having to waste your time and energy being cured of stuff you did not need to get. Good health education and public awareness campaigns can push people in the right direction. Works for me, and pretty well everybody else I know. (A few people maybe not: but see above.) That's basically the reason why smoking has gone from being a widespread adult habit to a strictly minority pursuit; alcohol consumption amongst the young is also much less than in my youth, and many don't drink alcohol at all.

That's a personal health incentive that anyone should have if they care about themselves. That has nothing to do with health care laws, which is what I'm talking about.

So am I. My point is that you don't have to force the huge majority of people to be healthy by making laws so they have to pay for medical treatment.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I wonder why people keep saying universal healthcare is free? It's not. However, if we could all pool our money together to lower the personal costs each of us incur, and I'm not sure how it wouldn't, I'm all for it. I mean, we do it with insurance companies anyway, but it seems between copays and premiums people are being taken to the cleaners by our system. No one should have a $1300 bill because an ambulance took them to the ER. No one should be bankrupted because they had a kid, or broke a femur, or were treated for an obstructed bowel. On a related note, I'm genuinely surprised hospitals and 'market forces' haven't really caught up with us in the sense they're not advertising prices online and at their facilities. You'd think some company would've at least tried to post, say, a menu where they offer x-service for y-price.

- Doc

[_Chap]

I wonder why people keep saying universal healthcare is free? It's not.

I always try to use the expression 'free at point of use'.

if we could all pool our money together to lower the personal costs each of us incur, and I'm not sure how it wouldn't, I'm all for it.

Same here!

[_Some Schmo]

I believe that laws should be tailored to encourage personal responsibility.

Sounds good, doesn't it? I mean, would anyone advocate personal irresponsibility? (The fact that nobody would flashes a warning light about your use of language). But what does it mean, exactly? That's more difficult.

They actually do, in fact. They just don't phrase it that way.

No warning lights are flashing, because I know what I mean when I say things. I don't have a problem paraphrasing the outcomes of certain actions, whether others would phrase them that way or not.

Should people be personally responsible for providing their families with clean drinking water? Should people be personally responsible for providing their children with basic education? Should people be personally responsible for protecting their families from being robbed by organised crime? Should people be responsible for providing roads for their cars to drive on?

This is a good argument for the wrong context. I'm not asking for people to be entirely personally responsible for their health care costs; otherwise, I wouldn't be for any kind of public healthcare system at all.

And what if they choose to exercise their personal responsibility by voting for a government that promises to give them universal health care free at the point of use? Have they morally degraded themselves by so doing?

Morally degraded themselves? That's a bit strong.