Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

[_honorentheos]

It's been four years. One name has changed, but the question is relevant.

I was at a work thing last week with a group of people from different disciplines and backgrounds. It ended a bit early but we were obligated to hang around for reasons. A young professional from a different firm and I who had become social during the weeks before preparing for the event were chatting after with a couple of other people when he took the conversation political. Turned out he was a hardcore Bernie supporters full of conspiracy ideas that the DNC was trying to stop Bernie from getting the nom and there was going to be revolution if the convention didn't result in his becoming the Democrat nom on the first ballot. It turned into a fun discussion that pulled in a Republican anti-socialist who was angry at Trump for blowing up the deficit but certain if Sanders get elected the recession starts the next day, and a couple of others. Good times. I kinda wish I could convince the same people to do a happy hour sometime.

Anyway, it reminded me that the concern over party unity is absolutely valid. Super Tuesday will be interesting.

P.S. - Schmo...hmm. I hope you changed your mind.

[_DoubtingThomas]

P.S. - Schmo...hmm. I hope you changed your mind.

Joe Biden doesn't care about guys like me. The only good thing about Biden is that he is the only candidate that has promised to fight disease and find a cure for cancer. Biden is horrible on everything else. My life will not be better with Joe Biden as president, and I shouldn't care. I work and pay my taxes, but what is Biden going to do for me?

I plan to vote for Biden in November (if he wins the nomination) only because of his promise to fight disease, but I could change my mind. Biden's vote to invade Iraq should have disqualified him from running for president .

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

It's been four years. One name has changed, but the question is relevant.

I was at a work thing last week with a group of people from different disciplines and backgrounds. It ended a bit early but we were obligated to hang around for reasons. A young professional from a different firm and I who had become social during the weeks before preparing for the event were chatting after with a couple of other people when he took the conversation political. Turned out he was a hardcore Bernie supporters full of conspiracy ideas that the DNC was trying to stop Bernie from getting the nom and there was going to be revolution if the convention didn't result in his becoming the Democrat nom on the first ballot.

There won't be a revolution, but really? You don't think the DNC is fighting against Sanders? 93 superdelegates have said they won't vote for him even if he ends up with the most pledged delegates (source below).

The DNC learned nothing from 2016. They didn't understand that Clinton had a bad reputation (not well deserved in my opinion) and wasn't going to excite people to vote for her. She did win the popular vote, but you're going to see the same if Biden gets the nomination. He does well in red states. Elsewhere Biden has a reputation as a clown with no ideas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/p ... gates.html

[_Res Ipsa]

Four years ago, Sanders argues that the Superdelegates should make him the nominee even if Clinton had the most pledged delegates but was short of a majority. This time, he’s arguing the opposite. Unless, of course, Biden has the most votes but not a majority, in which case I’m sure he’ll change positions again.

Bernie runs as a Democrat, but he does so by poking Democrats who spent their careers working in and supporting the party in the eye with a stick. Most people don’t like to be poked in the eye. And I sure wouldn’t vote for someone who poked me in the eye.

If Bernie doesn’t get a majority of the pledged delegates, it means more than half want someone other than Bernie. He’s then got to convince a combination of pledged and supers that they should back him. He’s chosen a strategy to run on, and he’s going to have to accept the downside of his choice.

[_honorentheos]

I told him than and I say it here, of course the Democrat establishment is using the rules of the game to work for a mainstream Democrat and not let an outsider who has always fought against the Democratic establishment win their nomination. The issue with Bernie supporters is they believe it is being done through subterfuge rather than out of legitimate ideological differences and the mechanisms of of our democracy.

[_honorentheos]

Bernie supporters who tell us he isn't THAT kind of socialist are saying we shouldn't take him literally. We should instead be taking him seriously.

They would have everyone believe he isn't going to actually be able to do the worst things he promises, and will have Congress to check him.

He promises to spend for causes dear to his core base, and let those who aren't part of his movement or base pound sand.

I've heard these arguments before.

The system we have is a representative democracy. We're finding out how many people Sanders actually represents. Bernie supporters who want the system to bend to confirm to their desire are precisely why there are plenty of people not convinced Sanders represents them.

If he wins, I'll vote for him. But I don't want him in the same way many Republicans didn't want Trump. It's not just that he isn't my guy. He and his base seriously concern me.

[_Some Schmo]

P.S. - Schmo...hmm. I hope you changed your mind.

Old threads are fun.

I couldn't remember what you were referring to so I had to go back and read what I'd said. I do remember feeling that way after it became clear Bernie wouldn't win the nomination.

That was before Trump went on TV, however, and asked the Russians to find Clinton's emails. That's when it was confirmed he's a traitor and I have been against him ever since.

I definitely held my nose and voted for Clinton. It still gives me the willies, but that was the choice: eat a bug or a piece of crap. Which one's easier to swallow?

[_DoubtingThomas]

Bernie supporters who want the system to bend to confirm to their desire are precisely why there are plenty of people not convinced Sanders represents them.

The people that support Sanders are mostly young voters that are struggling in life. People 65 and over (have medicare) support Biden. I have a feeling that many Biden supporters voted for Ronald Reagan in the 80s. The group that matters the most supports Sanders.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... y-primary/

Four years ago, Sanders argues that the Superdelegates should make him the nominee even if Clinton had the most pledged delegates but was short of a majority. This time, he’s arguing the opposite. Unless, of course, Biden has the most votes but not a majority, in which case I’m sure he’ll change positions again.

But at least Sanders is way more honest than Biden.

[_honorentheos]

Bernie supporters who want the system to bend to confirm to their desire are precisely why there are plenty of people not convinced Sanders represents them.

The people that support Sanders are mostly young voters that are struggling in life. People 65 and over (have medicare) support Biden. I have a feeling that many Biden supporters voted for Ronald Reagan in the 80s. The group that matters the most supports Sanders.

People of all age demographics struggle in life DT. The difference is older generations understand that nothing in life is free. It doesn't matter that Bernie says he's going to be a good kind of socialist. One doesn't take control of major institutions such as healthcare without being an authoritarian to some extent because to be successful socializing institutions requires enforcement against opposition. A movement rather than a campaign that makes grinding anyone who doesn't agree with them under their heel isn't promoting a kinder, gentler socialism. It's just socialism. And if you are old enough or been to parts of the world to recognize it for what it is, you would be opposed to it, too.

I agree we need to improve the way society works for the majority of people. I thought Warren's approach was the most compatible with democratic ideals and grounded in genuine attempts to understand problems in order to take them on effectively with respect for the institutions of liberal Western democracy. I thought Klobuchar was the best candidate overall for her pragmatic sleeves rolled up, whistle while you work ability to get things done. I thought Buttigieg seemed decent as a candidate who understood government in a rare, impressive way. I could get behind Booker, Harris, Gillibrand, Yang, or any number of the candidates. Gabbard is the one I found the most problematic. And I'll end up voting for Sanders if he wins. But I don't think he's advocating for for good ideas, was an incredibly ineffective rep and Senator, and has the real potential to be dangerous to democracy and individual liberty.

[_DoubtingThomas]

People of all age demographics struggle in life DT.

True, but according to exit polls Biden enjoys support from educated and higher income voters. Many of the Biden supporters are not struggling economically.

The difference is older generations understand that nothing in life is free.

That is not truth written in stone, and it doesn't have to be that way. With the advent of A.I. and robots a lot of things could end up being free. Génesis 3:19 "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food" doesn't really come from God. Older generations tend to be very close minded and do not like change. And older generations have medicare.

It doesn't matter that Bernie says he's going to be a good kind of socialist. One doesn't take control of major institutions such as healthcare without being an authoritarian to some extent because to be successful socializing institutions requires enforcement against opposition.

I have my doubts on universal healthcare, but countries like Denmark are considered to be less authoritarian than the US.

But I don't think he's advocating for for good ideas, was an incredibly ineffective rep and Senator, and has the real potential to be dangerous to democracy and individual liberty.

Sanders is excellent on foreign policy (presidents have a lot of power on foreign policy) and he is a libertarian on social issues.