Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

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_honorentheos
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _honorentheos »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:So. I can see why Honor is taking aim at EA's proclamations of being a Libertarian when he repeatedly advocates for socialist policies.

To be fair, I didn't doubt EA is ideologically libertarian. We've had plenty of discussions over the last decade or so that I have a general sense of the outlines of his views. Supporting Sanders plan was so far outside of those outlines it was unlikely that was the case he did support his plan. So I asked. That's what I find funny about chaps here. He is almost certainly operating from a bedrock belief in the value and defense for nationalized healthcare. So instead of just asking, he went about writing a convoluted argument on EAs behalf, then congratulated himself on having been wrong about EAs view of Sanders plan because EA apparently places the current system so far off the spectrum of preferred solutions he would accept any other solution put forward. I doubt that's accurate, either, but whatever.

I'd also like to see the government mandate pricing for healthcare where the consumer actually sees what they or their insurance is going to be charged. I think a truth-in-advertising requirement would actually usher in some sort of market-based competition and self-policing with regard to the price gouging we're experiencing. Medical costs are outrageous, and I don't believe for a second they need to be as high as they are. Perhaps if we cap malpractice lawsuits we can bring care back down to manageable levels. I dunno.

Absolutely agree.

ETA: universal basic income is espoused by certain libertarians on the grounds noted earlier. That being, individual freedom is best realized when the most basic needs are not a consuming concern. So that's not necessarily outside of his being ideologically libertarian. It would require knowing the underlying thought regarding the mechanisms for realizing it to be able to make that determination.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

honorentheos wrote:ETA: universal basic income is espoused by certain libertarians on the grounds noted earlier. That being, individual freedom is best realized when the most basic needs are not a consuming concern. So that's not necessarily outside of his being ideologically libertarian. It would require knowing the underlying thought regarding the mechanisms for realizing it to be able to make that determination.


I wonder if we should start a UBI thread, because I find the concept absolutely unworkable without blowing up our deficit and devaluing our currency to the point of UBI being useless in short order, anyway. I'm already wonky when it comes to welfare and social security for some types (like the morbidly obese), so I'm having a hard time finding any sort of good argument for UBI from any corner that doesn't pretend reality exists.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Chap
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _Chap »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:What's your angle here? EAllusion is an avowed Libertarian, but even he espouses socialist policies out of his version of pragmatism (I guess you could say the market would respond accordingly to his changes to healthcare). UBI is 100% socialism. There's just no way around it.


My 'angle' is that talking about whether X is or is not a <something>ian, or practices a version of <something else>ism, and then getting puzzled because X appears to like the idea of Y which is said to be <otherstuff>ist, and therefore incompatible with his being a <something>ian is ... a boring waste of time, and likely to do nobody much good.

honorentheos wrote:That's what I find funny about chaps here. He is almost certainly operating from a bedrock belief in the value and defense for nationalized healthcare.


I don't think I would like to be said to have anything like a 'bedrock belief' in anything, apart from '2+2=4' in normal base 10 arithmetic. Over the course of a fascinating and educative life, I have been forced to change my mind by facts rather too often to want my feet to be fixed into a block of 'bedrock' cement.

My beliefs are, rather, a changing set of views of what I (provisionally) think is probably the case, and I try to hold to them only to the extent that they continue to be supported by the facts to which I have access.

I believe we are currently discussing (amongst other things) the provision of healthcare. From wide reading and listening, it currently seems to me that a major worry of people of limited financial means and social clout in many countries is what will happen to them if they or a member of their family needs medical treatment. Will they be able to afford what they need? And if not, then what?

Based on personal experience and on study, I think that on the whole it is more pleasant (even physically safer) to live in societies in which people are not subject to a great deal of fear and stress. So in the context of the current discussion, I ask myself what might be done to remove at least some of people's worries linked to health care provision.

I don't currently see a lot of non-rich Americans telling the world that they are delighted with their current system of health-care provision, and given its very high cost compare to other systems, that seems to make it worth while for Americans to consider whether they might do better by arranging things differently. I have lived for extended periods in two countries with different universal and basically tax funded systems, and it is noticeable that people living under those systems may be worried about a serious illness as an illness, but do not suffer from acute financial anxiety about the costs of treatment. So, because I like Americans and would like to see them happy, I hope they will consider whether they might find it beneficial to set up a system of that kind in one of its many varieties adapted to the American situation, leaving aside pointless distractions about whether such a system would be insufficiently <something>ian or, worse, <other stuff>ist.

Apparently, quite a lot of Americans do already think that way.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_honorentheos
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _honorentheos »

Chap wrote:My 'angle' is that talking about whether X is or is not a <something>ian, or practices a version of <something else>ism, and then getting puzzled because X appears to like the idea of Y which is said to be <otherstuff>ist, and therefore incompatible with his being a <something>ian is ... a boring waste of time, and likely to do nobody much good.

It proved accurate while your approach proved to lead you down a false path. So...
honorentheos wrote:That's what I find funny about chaps here. He is almost certainly operating from a bedrock belief in the value and defense for nationalized healthcare.


I don't think I would like to be said to have anything like a 'bedrock belief' in anything, apart from '2+2=4' in normal base 10 arithmetic. Over the course of a fascinating and educative life, I have been forced to change my mind by facts rather too often to want my feet to be fixed into a block of 'bedrock' cement.

My beliefs are, rather, a changing set of views of what I (provisionally) think is probably the case, and I try to hold to them only to the extent that they continue to be supported by the facts to which I have access.

I believe we are currently discussing (amongst other things) the provision of healthcare. From wide reading and listening, it currently seems to me that a major worry of people of limited financial means and social clout in many countries is what will happen to them if they or a member of their family needs medical treatment. Will they be able to afford what they need? And if not, then what?

Based on personal experience and on study, I think that on the whole it is more pleasant (even physically safer) to live in societies in which people are not subject to a great deal of fear and stress. So in the context of the current discussion, I ask myself what might be done to remove at least some of people's worries linked to health care provision.

I don't currently see a lot of non-rich Americans telling the world that they are delighted with their current system of health-care provision, and given its very high cost compare to other systems, that seems to make it worth while for Americans to consider whether they might do better by arranging things differently. I have lived for extended periods in two countries with different universal and basically tax funded systems, and it is noticeable that people living under those systems may be worried about a serious illness as an illness, but do not suffer from acute financial anxiety about the costs of treatment. So, because I like Americans and would like to see them happy, I hope they will consider whether they might find it beneficial to set up a system of that kind in one of its many varieties adapted to the American situation, leaving aside pointless distractions about whether such a system would be insufficiently <something>ian or, worse, <other stuff>ist.

Apparently, quite a lot of Americans do already think that way.

You noted multiple central beliefs arrived at and held, and thus applied to fill in gaps in actual knowledge. You seem confused as to how independent and logical your own thought would miraculously operate were your grand delusion actually true. Your own comments above confirm it's just a delusion of somehow perfectly balanced logical thought. It's good, though. I'd hate to imagine you are actually an insane person writing from a padded cell truly so unmoored in mind as you proclaim.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _honorentheos »

It seems you have reduced the value of political identity to it's corruption into diehard partisanship. That this is not what occured in the discussion prior your joining in is...amusing. Not the least because it required you ignoring what was being said in favor of a previously arrived at belief of what ails political discourse.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Chap
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _Chap »

honorentheos wrote: I'd hate to imagine you are actually an insane person writing from a padded cell truly so unmoored in mind as you proclaim.


Oh go on .. give yourself a treat!

You are allowing this discussion to get to you. Why not go and do something else until you feel less worked up?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_honorentheos
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _honorentheos »

I'm really just spending the day puttering at house projects while listening to an audiobook on the British Civil Wars before a dinner get together this evening. Charles I having lost his head, the debate is on as to from whom the people ought to expect the just ordering of society, Leveler arguments currently the specific subject. Popping in here off and on every hour or so is hardly enflaming, or more than a moment's break. But we are heading for Cromwell...
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Chap,

Don't you think someone who says they're a Libertarian should actually advocate for Libertarian principles, and advocate against non-Libertarian principles? All I'm seeing is Honor calling EA out for stating that he's a Libertarian (Right, Left, or whatever no one can ever seem to understand his brand of Libertarianism that oddly looks a lot like other 'isms). What I see more often or not is EA advocating for hard Left policies, and then act aghast that someone would mistake his position for hard-Left policies, as if we're the ones with a perception problem. I'll give you an example of something I wonder about. EA has often advocated open immigration or open movement of people as a Libertarian principle he endorses. Ok. Cool. I get why he endorses that. In conjunction of open immigration (for the most part) does he:

- Endorse ending the welfare state. Something like 60+% of immigrants receive some form of welfare.

- Or perhaps stop welfare incentives for people to enter solely to live off welfare.

- Vet out those who will work, and those who would only live off of welfare.

- Stop illegal immigration into the country.

- Allow peaceful illegal immigrants an easier path to citizenship.

- Deport illegal immigrants found guilty of a felony.

- End the war on drugs that has destabilized Latin America.

Those are just a few examples where being a Libertarian on, say, open movement/immigration kind of branches out to other Libertarian issues. How Libertarian are we when talking about implementing Libertarian policies?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _EAllusion »

Lots of libertarians believe in social safety nets. Ya'll need to stop thinking of libertarianism as anarcho-capitalism and nothing else.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Will Sanders' Supporters Ultimately Back Trump?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

EAllusion wrote:Lots of libertarians believe in social safety nets. Ya'll need to stop thinking of libertarianism as anarcho-capitalism and nothing else.


Isn't a social safety net by definition something that falls under socialism?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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