End of USA republic imminent?

[_Jersey Girl]

delete

Just forget it.

[_Jersey Girl]

What is it about this image that I should find offensive?

I don't know. Your link doesn't work.

Yes, it does. It takes you to a link that goes directly to the NY Post where the image is displayed.

[_honorentheos]

Rock, I think you deserve recognition for engaging in a thoughtful, questioning manner. I'm impressed with your openness to thinking about the subjects you raised, acknowledging different points, and offering your point of view. You stand out since the normal way these threads play out is for everyone to entrench themselves more deeply in their initial positions. You're a good man, rock. Be well.

On the broader question asked in the OP title I do think this is where I find concern for the republic :

https://www.businessinsider.com/cuomo-t ... lts-2020-6

On Monday, Trump tweeted: "Because of MAIL-IN BALLOTS, 2020 will be the most RIGGED Election in our nations history — unless this stupidity is ended. We voted during World War One & World War Two with no problem, but now they are using Covid in order to cheat by using Mail-Ins!"

When the people in power undermine the legitimacy of our democratic processes in order to maintain power, that's a threat to the republic. If they were to be successful, that would be the death of the republic.

[_Res Ipsa]

Hey Rock, thanks for the reply. No apology necessary. We all get facts sideways. I'll watch the shorter videos and get back to you. But I just wanted to note that the STEM Shutdown was not a day were white folks stayed home and black folks showed up at work. It was a call for a one-day strike by academics to show solidarity with black folks. The time at home was suggested to be used to think about and plan ways to reduce racism in academia. I saw folks of all races promote it on Twitter, and I'm confident that everyone in academia didn't stay home that day. I don't recall anyone claiming that people who chose not to participate were racist.

No need for your review, I think honors above suggestions suffice. I've made enough noise. So this one-day-strike did happen?

Yep. I believe those who participated even stayed of Twitter.

I do think your concerns about free speech are justified. I'm of the school that says free speech requires defending the speech you hate. I first saw the tactic of shutting down speech by shouting down the speaker in law school (Jewish student shouting down a PLO representative). I didn't like it then, and I still don't like it now. Even so, the Republic has lurched onward.

[_Chap]

[Trump says:] We voted during World War One & World War Two with no problem

Yup. And people serving in the armed forces got to vote by mail - with no problem. There were a heck of a lot of them too.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[quote=Chap post_id=1229625 time=1592937583 user_id=681]
[quote=honorentheos post_id=1229613 time=1592925857 user_id=7137][Trump says:] We voted during World War One & World War Two with no problem[/quote]

Yup. And people serving in the armed forces got to vote by mail - with no problem. There were a heck of a lot of them too.
[/quote]

Yup. Let’s remember that a metric buttload of those votes were thrown out thanks to a Democrat challenge in the 2000 election, so hopefully we don’t see a repeat of that this year. *fingers crossed*

- Doc

[_EAllusion]

You brought that up before Doc and were debunked. Why are you repeating it now?

[_MeDotOrg]

[Trump]We voted during World War One & World War Two with no problem, but now they are using Covid in order to cheat by using Mail-Ins!"

From History.com:

By November, when the flu was generally waning in the eastern part of the country, it was ramping up in the West. In Sacramento, California, some poll sites couldn’t open, according to the Sacramento Bee, because “there were not enough citizens who were well enough.” In San Francisco, health officials issued an order in late October mandating that people wear face masks while in public or in a group of two or more people. All poll workers and voters were required to wear masks on Election Day, prompting the San Francisco Chronicle to call it “the first masked ballot ever known in the history of America.”

[Guest]

Hi Rock,

Weinstein is one of a small number of professors who have become famous due to conflicts with students/University administrations over issues seen as promoting a left-wing agenda. Surveying the landscape for others, I think Jordan Peterson is probably the most widely known due to really hitting the media circuits. His public profile rose over opposition to Canadian laws regarding gender discrimination. He's fairly religious and his public positions seem to be largely grounded in religious conservatism. He got famous and is doing so well making money being a public figure, including having a best selling book, he suspended his teaching schedule.

My view of Weinstein is influenced by my view of Peterson which is, he is resisting change first out of gut instinct, and then using his education to confabulate the rationale for why. That said, the movements on colleges of self-righteous students who favor authoritarian imposition of their views over others is the mirror of this. And that happens. I mean, they're kids. The term sophomoric exists for a reason. It's another thing to seek for change, demand debate when the institution resists considering change, and standing up for that to happen. And I think a fair amount of what Peterson and that crowd decry is legitimate honest interest in seeking positive change that they ( especially Peterson) reject and cry "postmodernism!" or whatever their label of choice is when really their being resistant to change is based on no more reasonable position than it rubs them wrong.

The real question is in the role universities play in helping educate and direct that enthusiasm, curiousity, activism, and quest for wisdom in the path towards learning to learn. That seems to be where much of the smoke exists in the debates. It seems to me there is a lot of variety at that point between universities and student bodies, too. Marketplace of ideas and what, right?

Honorenthoes, I went ahead and listened to utube material from Mr Weinstein. It is pretty clear that you are correct that his concerns are much like Jordan Peterson. Bret Weinstein is clearly a lefty looking for social change. Is it ironic to link him with Peterson?

I found myself questioning your commments about Peterson but should start by saying that there are things I find puzzleing about Peterson. That clearly means if I disagree with what you see I am recognizing a possibility that you are correct ,at least in part.

I am puzzled about your proposal that his public views are grounded in religious conservatism. It is not clear what views those would be. His religious views are on the far left end of religious views. Moderate Christians have noted he may be interesting but is not actually a Christian believer. I thought his most important public view was his impassioned defense of free debate between different points of view. He views that open debate is one of the fundamental values in the success of civilizations. He has made a variety of speeches in defense of that. Peterson views it as important to realize that opposing views may learn things from each other and it is dangerous to believe your side has all the truth. (not a view normally emphasized in conservative religion)

It is clear that Peterson met with fanatical obstruction from groups of hostile folks looking for a target. It is not entirely clear to me whether he is reacting with exaggerated fear or whether he is sounding a significant alarm.
Perhaps more true of Bret Weinstein but a good deal of the emotions sound like they are driven by battles between different left wing factions.

Perhaps drawing more suspicion of operating off gut level conservative bias by Jordan Peterson could be another couple of issues.
He interprets both the phrases, white privilege and patriarchy, through the lens of extremists who fit his catagory of the postmodernist neo Marxts he fears and disagrees with. He has stated that he supports equalizing opportunity for races and sexes. Still I find him unhappily inarticulate about that support, odd for a person generally quite articulate.

////////// adding further also thinking of Rocks question about antiscience.

I found a Youtube with Joe Rogan speaking with Bret Weinstein and Jordan Peterson together. Jordan is complaining that the groups he is criticizing insist the human characteristics are all socially shaped and not biologically shaped. This particularly with regards to sexual differences but includes others as well. Both agree that such views repress or block biological studies. Both point out Stanlinist belief in this nonbiological control of people undermined Soviet biological study.

It is clear that neither of them are campaigning to maintain specific social roles for men and women. Peterson phrases something carefully, "It is good to seek to encourage maximalizing economic contribution for people across the sexes."

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[quote=EAllusion post_id=1229629 time=1592942082 user_id=1078]
You brought that up before Doc and were debunked. Why are you repeating it now?
[/quote]

I love how you just assert crap. I wasn’t debunked to the overall point that Democratic operatives distributed a memo to 64 county canvassing boards in Florida describing how to reject military ballots based on an improperly used statute, and did in fact get ~1500 overseas military ballots rejected in Florida due to the lack of a postmark or some other horse crap reason. Even Lieberman caught a ration of crap for suggesting Democrats should accept the ballots. This is especially grievous since various Democrats have routinely insisted illegal aliens and other questionable types (like teens under 18) get a vote. Anyway, I’m in good company with various news agencies and am comfortable in my assertion.

As to why I bring it up is because absentee voting has been a fairly consistent cudgel used by both Democrats and Republicans when it doesn’t suit their needs. The fact that Drumpf is getting a jump on this tactic is interesting, but fairly routine political posturing. I was unaware we couldn’t draw from historical precedence when discussion a current topic?

edit: blast from the past article describing the situation- https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html
- Doc