America's perpetual struggle with racism

[_EAllusion]

Interesting, so the confederates did havevthe contitution on there side, juzt not yhe might to enforce it

Slavery was legal in the US at the outset of the civil war Ajax. It was enforced. Confederates were just deeply worried that the election of a free soil President represented a harbinger that would, at some point down the road, constrict their ability to legally enshrine slavery in perpetuity through gradual loss of political influence. So they led an insurrection to form a separate nation.

I'm thinking your understanding of US history leaves something to be desired.

[_ajax18]

Interesting, so the confederates did havevthe contitution on there side, juzt not yhe might to enforce it

Slavery was legal in the US at the outset of the civil war Ajax. It was enforced. Confederates were just deeply worried that the election of a free soil President represented a harbinger that would, at some point down the road, constrict their ability to legally enshrine slavery in perpetuity through gradual loss of political influence. So they led an insurrection to form a separate nation.

I'm thinking your understanding of US history leaves something to be desired.

States were intended to by the framers to be sovereign. After the civil war, they pretty much became big counties rather than sovereign states.

[_ajax18]

I guess ultimately the declaration of Independence and constitution, must all be torn down and replaced. After all it was written by white supremacists. I think they believed in God to, which makes them insane.

So all men are not created equal nor endowed with unalienable rights by our creator. You can't believe a white supremacts slave owner.

[_Icarus]

Slavery was legal in the US at the outset of the civil war Ajax. It was enforced. Confederates were just deeply worried that the election of a free soil President represented a harbinger that would, at some point down the road, constrict their ability to legally enshrine slavery in perpetuity through gradual loss of political influence. So they led an insurrection to form a separate nation.

I'm thinking your understanding of US history leaves something to be desired.

States were intended to by the framers to be sovereign. After the civil war, they pretty much became big counties rather than sovereign states.

Which goes to prove how wrong the framers were huh? A strong Federal Government is what we should have had from the start, because the alternative nearly destroyed the country from within. But not all framers argued for state sovereignty. The greater or enumerated powers were granted to the Federal government while the reserved powers were granted to the States. The States were never considered completely sovereign.

[_EAllusion]

Slavery was legal in the US at the outset of the civil war Ajax. It was enforced. Confederates were just deeply worried that the election of a free soil President represented a harbinger that would, at some point down the road, constrict their ability to legally enshrine slavery in perpetuity through gradual loss of political influence. So they led an insurrection to form a separate nation.

I'm thinking your understanding of US history leaves something to be desired.

States were intended to by the framers to be sovereign. After the civil war, they pretty much became big counties rather than sovereign states.

Why were the Articles of Confederation scrapped for the Constitution again?

[_EAllusion]

Which goes to prove how wrong the framers were huh?

Nah. Ajax is crazy wrong about the federalist system owing to a pro-Confederate view of secession that manages to be to John C. Calhoun's right. States were not set up to be independently sovereign. That's, "you've never read the Constitution in your life, have you?" levels of ignorance.

The more accurate version of this is the federal government's authority over the states was strengthened by the incorporation doctrine interpreted from the due process clause of the 14th amendment. And rightly so.

[_EAllusion]

An interesting point here is in the antebellum period, Southern slave interests were at a high point of political success in some ways. They recently got a robust fugitive slave act passed to provide federal enforcement of requiring escaped slaves in free states to be returned. A Supreme Court stacked with their appointees declared blacks, in effect, non-persons lacking in citizenship status.

They just saw their streak of wins possibly coming to an end with territorial expansion favoring people dedicated to curbing the spread of slavery portending a future where they could be outvoted. They didn't get enough to satisfy them. Slavery now. Slavery forever.

Yet when Ajax, or people like Ajax, act as though these Southern states were sovereign entities who retained the right to enshrine slavery in perpetuity, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of complaining about their successes in infringing on what other states wanted to do. The Fugitive Slave act of 1850 was a Federal Law that imposed Federal restrictions on what free states could do in their borders enforced with Federal force. Dred Scott was a Federal court decision that restricted what free states may do. The concern here about states rights only goes in one direction, much in the same way it has with opposition gay marriage. Try to ban it federally, and if you can't, whine about states rights when you can't ban it at the state level.

[_MeDotOrg]

I guess ultimately the declaration of Independence and constitution, must all be torn down and replaced. After all it was written by white supremacists. I think they believed in God to, makes them insane.

So all men are not created equal nor endowed with unalienable rights by our creator. Can't believe a white supremacts slave owner.

When dio you 0lan om getting rid of the founding fathers and erasing them from history? Will Great Britain still take us back?

We must recognize the imperfections of our founding fathers, just as we must recognize the imperfection in ourselves. The American experience was the first great experiment in democracy. Just because I don't believe the Constitution was divinely inspired doesn't mean I don't recognize its brilliance as a document. It was and is a brilliant document. It was forged with an alloy of idealism and realpolitik. The realpolitik as been glossed over in our American mythos.

The lives of the founding fathers contain the contradictions and imperfections of mortal men. Thomas Jefferson's words live as a clarion call to all mankind. But the children of his slave mistress live today as well.

The founding fathers made a decision about slavery, but they left us with a form of government that could right that wrong. I think as Americans we should appreciate the gifts of freedom and liberty that were given to the vast majority of Americans, while at the same time dedicating ourselves the task of making those blessings available to all.

Mankind is on a journey, and that journey is not yet complete. I'm not sure that it ever is. Those who want to tear down everything built by imperfect men are absolutely blind to the imperfections in themselves. You know, remove the beam from your own eye before removing the splinter from another eye.

So I also hate it when people refer the themselves as 'woke', as if they have attained some Politically Correct Nirvana. I do not want to erase the founding fathers, nor do I want to see them worshiped as Demi-gods. Recognize their brilliance while at the same time recognizing that they were imperfect, see how those imperfections have affected our country, and attempt to right those wrongs.

[_Gunnar]

We must recognize the imperfections of our founding fathers, just as we must recognize the imperfection in ourselves. The American experience was the first great experiment in democracy. Just because I don't believe the Constitution was divinely inspired doesn't mean I don't recognize its brilliance as a document. It was and is a brilliant document. It was forged with an alloy of idealism and realpolitik. The realpolitik as been glossed over in our American mythos.

The lives of the founding fathers contain the contradictions and imperfections of mortal men. Thomas Jefferson's words live as a clarion call to all mankind. But the children of his slave mistress live today as well.

The founding fathers made a decision about slavery, but they left us with a form of government that could right that wrong. I think as Americans we should appreciate the gifts of freedom and liberty that were given to the vast majority of Americans, while at the same time dedicating ourselves the task of making those blessings available to all.

Mankind is on a journey, and that journey is not yet complete. I'm not sure that it ever is. Those who want to tear down everything built by imperfect men are absolutely blind to the imperfections in themselves. You know, remove the beam from your own eye before removing the splinter from another eye.

So I also hate it when people refer the themselves as 'woke', as if they have attained some Politically Correct Nirvana. I do not want to erase the founding fathers, nor do I want to see them worshiped as Demi-gods. Recognize their brilliance while at the same time recognizing that they were imperfect, see how those imperfections have affected our country, and attempt to right those wrongs.

Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! The best post in this thread so far! I don't know how it could have been better stated!

What a contrast with hard right bigots like ajax18 whose main obsession seems to be to perpetuate some of the of those wrongs unfortunately still embedded in our otherwise brilliant, though still imperfect constitution, and restore some of the worst of those wrongs that have already been justifiably corrected.

[_Gunnar]

I'm thinking your understanding of US history leaves something to be desired.

Understatement of the week!