That Harpers Open Letter

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _EAllusion »

I've seen a lot of commentary that criticizes the decent signatories by pointing out that a good bulk of the signatories are bad faith actors whose concerns primarily involve creating a space to express disreputable prejudices or defend bigots without wanting to face any social or professional consequences for doing so, even when their chosen profession involves being given a giant platform to amplify their views. They aren't concerned about free speech per se, and in fact often have hostile views on free speech outside of this context, but are concern trolling as a defensive posture. There's a who's who of people with noxious hobbyhorses on the list, in fact.

If you criticize it by mere association, that's ad hominem. It's not you're fault if some malicious actor agrees with you for the wrong reasons. But I think the way to present that criticism is different. It's more that if you sign a list that is prominently featuring them, people are going to assume that you are implicitly endorsing this behavior. You're not, but there's an impression created. It's like if I signed a petition stating that "Evolutionary theory has areas of uncertainty in want of explanation requiring further questioning and reevaluation." It doesn't matter that this is a harmless, obviously true statement if the signatories are me and a bunch of creationists. The creationists create the context to interpret what's being communicated by the sentiment, and it's *not* what I mean. People will interpret it to mean that I think evolutionary theory is in more doubt that I intend.

Anyway, I mostly agree with Ken White's opinion:
If the Harper's Letter is meant as a statement of principles, fine. If it's meant to persuade, I'm not sure how effective it is out of the circles of people already persuaded. I respectfully question the chosen emphasis.

Here's the thing. First Amendment protections in America are at a historical strong point -- the LEGAL (not cultural) free speech position has been running the table at the Supreme Court for a generation. But things change. The 4th and 5th Amendments are in tatters compared to their high mark, victims of a successful conservative counter-revolution to the Warren Court. The pendulum can swing. What prevents that? Broad respect for the values underlying the First Amendment.

If respect for First Amendment values -- limits on government power to punish speech -- are sufficiently strong and universal, unlike our fatuous law-and-order culture that undermines the other amendments, the First stays strong. I know the signatories to the letter view themselves as protecting those First Amendment values, and intend to do so. But, as a cultural project, I think their approach misses the mark and generates more suspicion of First Amendment values than support.

That's because of the fundamental deal behind First Amendment values: you can't use the government to punish speech because the marketplace of ideas, the private sector, society's "more speech" is the best way to address "bad speech," not government action.

So. What if your emphasis in supporting First Amendment values is attacking "more speech" as illegitimate?
People: Censor this speech!
Defenders: No, counter it with more speech.
People: okay, [more speech]
Defenders: No, not like that.

I think this emphasis has the natural and probable effect of conveying to people that "the deal" is BS.

That's particularly true because the "cancel culture" narrative, even if a matter of good faith concern, is ALSO used relentlessly by people of manifestly bad faith. People who complain about cancel culture while demanding flag burning amendments and "loosening up" libel laws and laws protecting running over protesters and having Black Lives Matter declared terrorist are, to be plain, utterly full of crap. And they're legion.

That's exacerbated by the tendency -- including in the letter -- to be vague on the distinction between real "cancellation" (say, getting someone fired) and vigorous and even profane condemnation, shunning, etc. The appearance is that of a motte-and-bailey argument. The motte-and-bailey argument is, basically, using the very widespread feeling that people shouldn't get fired for (say) retweeting an academic paper and trying to apply it when someone calls out blatant overt yelling-at-strangers-in-a-restaurant racism. Which is a thing.

So, how to sell the deal better? How to get people to internalize the value of no-government-punishment-for-speech instead of letting it erode, as it inevitably will if not defended?

With respect, some discipline and proportion. First, proportion. In general, the people who bear the most weight of the First Amendment -- that is, who have to suck up the most "bad speech" and take it -- are not the victims of cancel culture. Are some of them wronged by "cancel culture," in terms of morals and decency? Hell yes. Are they the only ones? No. Is the person who says things offensive to the (occasionally freakishly irrational) political left the central tragic figures of the age? Nah bro. A bit more of reading the room -- particularly when there are, you know, white nationalists marching -- and a bit less self-focus. Maybe a bit more explicit recognition that the First Amendment requires people to endure horrible things.

Also. Since we're selling the deal -- how about distinguishing your product from the competitor's? How does your version of free speech differ from the version of people who are simultaneously crying "cancel culture" and calling for mass arrests of protesters? Selling people on the deal means pointing out how "the same rights protect us all" is more than a platitude -- it's real. It's pointing out how the forces you empower by allowing government punishment of speech are the bad guys -- not in the abstract, right here right now.

I mean, right now this is easy like selling cold beer at a party in July. You've got political and cultural forces that are explicitly, openly salivating over punishing left-leaning speech. So why not call that out? Why not point out how the deal protects people right now?

To sell the deal -- to protect not just "culture" but the actual First Amendment -- you've got to convince people that this isn't elaborate special pleading to protect some speech but not other speech from consequences. I respectfully submit this falls short of that.
The only thing I'd quibble with here is that "the solution to bad speech is more speech" isn't a sound sociological analysis. Bad speech wins out all the time. People are remarkably easy to convince of bad ideas while good ones are staring them in the face. History is replete with examples of bad ideas winning in the marketplace of ideas and causing catastrophic harm. It's more that giving too much power to too few people to determine the bounds of acceptable opinion does far more harm than good, so we have to maintain a mutual respect to keep it to speech even if that doesn't always work.
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _Some Schmo »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:51 am
That's many steps down the road towards authoritarianism itself as you expressed it.
Christ, honor.

Listen, people can and will believe whatever the fu-ck they want. That in no way compels me to have a discussion with people who spend their time living in their own private fantasy. This is why I don't argue with people over religion any more. It's pointless.

If you want that, have at it. I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm not stopping you or them. Have fun.

If I'm going to debate or discuss anything with anyone, I have to have a sense they care about reality. They don't even have to be fully in touch with it, just on the quest to find it. That's all I'm saying. You want to talk about values. I value discussions about the actual universe we inhabit. Call me crazy.

If you want to exchange bullsh-it with people, you're likely going to come away covered in sh-it.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _Some Schmo »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:00 am
give me Res Ipsa laying down counter evidence and debunking sources anytime over simple dismissal.
Good. You've stated your preference. I don't have the inclination to convince those types of people. Read Res, not me.

If you want to have a discussion about what to do about climate change, now that we've agreed it's an actual problem, I'm all ears.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:04 am
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:51 am
That's many steps down the road towards authoritarianism itself as you expressed it.
Christ, honor.

Listen, people can and will believe whatever the fu-ck they want. That in no way compels me to have a discussion with people who spend their time living in their own private fantasy. This is why I don't argue with people over religion any more. It's pointless.

If you want that, have at it. I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm not stopping you or them. Have fun.

If I'm going to debate or discuss anything with anyone, I have to have a sense they care about reality. They don't even have to be fully in touch with it, just on the quest to find it. That's all I'm saying. You want to talk about values. I value discussions about the actual universe we inhabit. Call me crazy.

If you want to exchange ____ with people, you're likely going to come away covered in sh-it.
To compel you to converse or debate would also be missing the point, wouldn't it? The argument isn't with the value an individual assigns to debating a subject. It is over the fundamental value of protecting the right to expression of views with which one might not agree.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:03 am
If you criticize it by mere association, that's ad hominem. It's not you're fault if some malicious actor agrees with you for the wrong reasons. But I think the way to present that criticism. It's more that if you sign a list that is prominently dominated by them, people are going to assume that you are implicitly endorsing this behavior. You're not, but there's an impression created. It's like if I signed a petition stating that "Evolutionary theory has areas of uncertainty in want of explanation requiring further questioning and reevaluation." It doesn't matter that this is a harmless, obviously true statement if the signatories are me and a bunch of creationists. The creationists create the context to interpret what's being communicated by the sentiment, and it's *not* what I mean.
https://areomagazine.com/2018/05/04/rhe ... -by-proxy/

The other day a friend linked me to a tweet from one journalist to another: “i think you want to be really careful,” it said, “about using language that sounds like you might be [doing something that the second person had explicitly disavowed doing].” Ethan Strauss, a Twitter friend and first-rate sports journalist, suggested (after he saw me reply in my customarily truculent way) that there is a phenomenon here that needs a name. I think we should call it rhextortion. It’s a rhetorical extortion racket. (This phrase seemed a bit too extreme to some early readers, so if you like, substitute in “misinterpretation by proxy.”)


Let’s outline a few important features of rhextortion. One important thing is that the rhextortionist knows exactly what the target means. The potential misinterpretation is entirely in the hands of generally unnamed third parties who are not present. The rhextortionist then presents themselves to the target as doing them a favor. Here, for example, the target learns from the rhextortionist what the target themselves “wants.” How kind! They’re not the ones trying to control your language; they’re simply warning you that the misinterpretation is out there, somehow, without commenting on whether it’s justified.

Now, what’s the goal of the rhextortionist? Let’s just look at the facts. When someone prevents you from saying P on the grounds that someone else might interpret it as meaning Q, you haven’t been prevented from saying Q. You’ve been prevented from saying P. A realist has to assume that the goal, therefore, is to prevent people from saying P.


The letter is pretty clear in urging caution towards impulses on the left shared with the worst actors on the right towards not just stifling speech but going after people's careers for having views on subjects with which they don't agree. Blurring it into right wing attacks to be able to dismiss it is an example of the thing being warned against.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _Some Schmo »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:16 am
To compel you to converse or debate would also be missing the point, wouldn't it?
No. It was the point of the letter. We should be open to and endure everyone's opinion, apparently, no matter how outrageous we find it to be.
The argument isn't with the value an individual assigns to debating a subject. It is over the fundamental value of protecting the right to expression of views with which one might not agree.
So where have I said people couldn't express their views, honor?

Maybe I should back up and ask if you agree that there's a difference between an opinion and a fact.

But regardless even of that answer, I'm not saying people can't express their opinion as though it were fact. I'm just saying I don't have to take the bait.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:23 am
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:16 am
To compel you to converse or debate would also be missing the point, wouldn't it?
No. It was the point of the letter. We should be open to and endure everyone's opinion, apparently, no matter how outrageous we find it to be.
If this is a fact, you should be able to quote from it to show you are accurately capturing the point. So...feel free.
Maybe I should back up and ask if you agree that there's a difference between an opinion and a fact.
Yes I do. Facts are opinions that are supported by evidence sufficient to overcome criticism. I've been sure of things before, as have you if you were Mormon, that I believed to have been factual. It wasn't until I allowed them to stand on their own legs against criticism that I found out they were just nice ideas I'd been accepting because of many, varied reason. All of which came down to underlining the vital role debate and challenge plays is determining the difference. I'm not sure anything isn't possible to take down with new evidence yet to be discovered. But to be treated as fact, it has to have been tested in some manner that illustrates the strength of the evidence in it's favor.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _EAllusion »

Calling a position "realist" doesn't make it so. This quote just imputes bad motives to behavior it dislikes without trying to address the argument. If a person wants to say "P" they can do so in a context where their point is likely to be understood.

Anyway, I think there's an important distinction between defending the KKK's right to march in the street as an abstract principle and signing onto a letter that the KKK is presenting expressing a concern for free expression given that a modestly informed public knows the KKK's does not hold that position in good faith. The former makes it seem like you are defending a idea that includes even distasteful examples while the latter makes it look like you're just interested in opening up the public space to more prejudice and are endorsing their bad faith arguments to make that possible. The context does, in fact, matter.

A lot has been written about this and it seems like some people signing it didn't know that this would be the context and are displeased, so this isn't meant to condemn any signatory. It's just recognizing time and place.
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _honorentheos »

Where the “F” did you find the KKK in this? It's like you saw that point and said, "Here, hold my White Claw..."
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: That Harpers Open Letter

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:19 am
The letter is pretty clear in urging caution towards impulses on the left shared with the worst actors on the right towards not just stifling speech but going after people's careers for having views on subjects with which they don't agree. Blurring it into right wing attacks to be able to dismiss it is an example of the thing being warned against.
The signatories on the letter cannot be reduced into platitudes about left and right, though. They are famous people with specific track records on this subject. The uniting theme for most of them is not a public life defending free speech rights. There's a swarm of people known for expressing prejudiced opinions or defending others doing the same with many having gotten into some hot water for doing so, though not nearly enough to destroy their lives. It's like the letter was passed around a listserv of controversial public figures who faced backlash. Jenn Kamp Rowling, for instance, recently got into trouble for expressing some TERF sentiments. She's still a billionaire, but some people were mean to her online as a result. She then even more recently threatened to sue someone for suggesting in a tweet that she shouldn't be around children in response to that. Free speech zealot she is not. In fact, she seems to be one of those enemies of free speech mentioned here, yet she's signing the thing. Why? Well, it's because she's an advocate against shunning Jenn Kamp Rowling or people with Jenn Kamp Rowling's views. Those are distinct things.

If some people come across this letter and recognize the names, it would be quite unfortunate if their takeaway is that free speech is a bad faith defense of people who want to create fewer consequences for expressing prejudiced views or that's what surprising names signing the letter are suggesting.

The sentiment behind the letter is fine, aside from the "antidote to speech" cliché' that is probably wrong as a matter of basic fact. As an attempt at persuasion, it seems bad.
Post Reply