Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Structural racisim is one of those topics that require me to spend time thinking about how to think about it. It seems perfectly obvious to me that rules that appear neutral on their face can have a discriminatory impact in practice. To me, that's the classic example of how a structure can be racist even though none of the individuals that design, implement, participate in, or benefit from the structure intend the structure to be discriminatory. The law has recognized this for years, acknowledging that both de jure and de facto discrimination exist.

What this tells me is that, when thinking about racisim, it is not enough to discuss rules and principles in a vacuum -- everything must be placed in context. And that context is the structure.

To me, that's where 99% of race discussions among white folks -- especially white men -- that I've observed miss the boat. They are limited to discussing abstract principles in a vacuum in an attempt to create rules that are "fair for everyone." But what appears fair in a vacuum may be deeply unfair depending on the structure that the rule is embedded in. That fact is never considered, and the the white folks go on their merry way, patting themselves on the back that they've "solved" racism. It's a kind of willful blindness. And it functions to allow racist structures to persist in society.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _subgenius »

Icarus wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:37 am
subgenius wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:04 am


why u no list Chicago? Baltimore? Detroit? St Louis?

oh, because you just did murder...not crime..and because (obvious) your post are inept.

Lets dumb it down for ya:
2019 CRIME rates per 100k, top 5 cities in US:

1 St. Louis Missouri 2,082.3 - Democrat Mayor
2 Detroit Michigan 2,056.7 - Democrat Mayor
3 Baltimore Maryland 2,027.0 - Democrat Mayor
4 Memphis Tennessee 2,003.3 - Democrat Mayor
...
rube
Fact check: Big cities have crime and more Democrats, but it's a stretch to link them

Mouth breather, correlation and causation is something most of us learned in high school. I recommend you try to finish.
Again.
1.the claim was Democrat cities= highest crime rates.

to which you responded

2. "ha! republican cities are top 2 with murder"

for which i clarified

3. "actually, top crime rates was subject, and indeed they all have Democrat mayors, a.k.a. Democrat cities".
...
which led you to suddenly backtrack to violence...not crime..but violence as being irrelevant of Democrat/rep.
...
and then you parrot what you have heard grown ups say, but nobody except Ajax was doing that.
..until you did it in response.
...but then you did it wrong.
...so now you just claim you were right the whole time.
...
good times.
...
rube.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Icarus
_Emeritus
Posts: 1541
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 pm

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _Icarus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:23 pm
Structural racisim is one of those topics that require me to spend time thinking about how to think about it. It seems perfectly obvious to me that rules that appear neutral on their face can have a discriminatory impact in practice. To me, that's the classic example of how a structure can be racist even though none of the individuals that design, implement, participate in, or benefit from the structure intend the structure to be discriminatory. The law has recognized this for years, acknowledging that both de jure and de facto discrimination exist.

What this tells me is that, when thinking about racisim, it is not enough to discuss rules and principles in a vacuum -- everything must be placed in context. And that context is the structure.

To me, that's where 99% of race discussions among white folks -- especially white men -- that I've observed miss the boat. They are limited to discussing abstract principles in a vacuum in an attempt to create rules that are "fair for everyone." But what appears fair in a vacuum may be deeply unfair depending on the structure that the rule is embedded in. That fact is never considered, and the the white folks go on their merry way, patting themselves on the back that they've "solved" racism. It's a kind of willful blindness. And it functions to allow racist structures to persist in society.
You said it better than I could.
"One of the hardest things for me to accept is the fact that Kevin Graham has blonde hair, blue eyes and an English last name. This ugly truth blows any arguments one might have for actual white supremacism out of the water. He's truly a disgrace." - Ajax
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Icarus wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:05 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:23 pm
Structural racisim is one of those topics that require me to spend time thinking about how to think about it. It seems perfectly obvious to me that rules that appear neutral on their face can have a discriminatory impact in practice. To me, that's the classic example of how a structure can be racist even though none of the individuals that design, implement, participate in, or benefit from the structure intend the structure to be discriminatory. The law has recognized this for years, acknowledging that both de jure and de facto discrimination exist.

What this tells me is that, when thinking about racisim, it is not enough to discuss rules and principles in a vacuum -- everything must be placed in context. And that context is the structure.

To me, that's where 99% of race discussions among white folks -- especially white men -- that I've observed miss the boat. They are limited to discussing abstract principles in a vacuum in an attempt to create rules that are "fair for everyone." But what appears fair in a vacuum may be deeply unfair depending on the structure that the rule is embedded in. That fact is never considered, and the the white folks go on their merry way, patting themselves on the back that they've "solved" racism. It's a kind of willful blindness. And it functions to allow racist structures to persist in society.
You said it better than I could.
Thanks. That's just one piece of a bunch of fragmentary lines of thought that come into play when I try to think about how I should think about racisim. Here's another. The more I read about human thinking, the more convinced I am that my opinions, evaluations and judgments are largely the products of brain processes of which the part of my brain that is "me" is unaware. The many priming studies I've read and read about have me pretty convinced of that. And if that's so, then I have to admit that I have no idea whatsoever how a person's race affects how I think about them and treat them. That means I have no idea whether I have negative biases toward POC or whether they lead me to act in discriminatory ways based on race.

Sure, the "me" part of my brain will back-rationalize anything I say or do so that it can convince itself that it is not racist. After all, it operates off of a very simple and powerful syllogism: 1. Racisim is something bad people do. 2. I am not a bad person. 3. Therefore, I am not racist. And because I am not a racist, if someone points out something I say or do as racist, the most important thing for the me part of my brain is to defend itself by rationalizing whatever it was I said or did as not racist.

So, I think that part of how to think about racism is to reject the first premise of the syllogism, admit that I don't know the extent my own prejudices with respect to race, and face the fact that the part of my brain that tells me I'm not racist is an extremely biased judge.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_ajax18
_Emeritus
Posts: 6914
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:56 am

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _ajax18 »

The only bias is the foreordained conclusion that .racism must be found even when it doesn't exist. Does anyone else find it odd that the most violent and unreasonable protests are not down south in red states but on the left coast.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Icarus
_Emeritus
Posts: 1541
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 pm

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _Icarus »

ajax18 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:27 pm
The only bias is the foreordained conclusion that .racism must be found even when it doesn't exist. Does anyone else find it odd that the most violent and unreasonable protests are not down south in red states but on the left coast.

That isn't a foregone conclusion. It is the conclusion deduced from actual facts. That a notorious Nazi would argue racism doesn't exist isn't really surprising.
"One of the hardest things for me to accept is the fact that Kevin Graham has blonde hair, blue eyes and an English last name. This ugly truth blows any arguments one might have for actual white supremacism out of the water. He's truly a disgrace." - Ajax
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

So will Res Ipsa and Icarus admit on this thread they’re racists?

- Doc
_Icarus
_Emeritus
Posts: 1541
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 pm

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _Icarus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:34 pm
So will Res Ipsa and Icarus admit on this thread they’re racists?

- Doc
I'm still waiting for you to answer the question. How many dead black people before you're willing to say those deaths outweigh the costs of $500 million in property damage?

I never understood why it is so important for some people to fight against acknowledging the established facts of structural racism. Maybe you can explain why you're so vested in it being false.
"One of the hardest things for me to accept is the fact that Kevin Graham has blonde hair, blue eyes and an English last name. This ugly truth blows any arguments one might have for actual white supremacism out of the water. He's truly a disgrace." - Ajax
_ajax18
_Emeritus
Posts: 6914
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:56 am

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _ajax18 »

That isn't a foregone conclusion. It is the conclusion deduced from actual facts. That a notorious Nazi would argue racism doesn't exist isn't really surprising.
Does it surprise you that this police brutality is happening in Democrat run cities and states rather than rural red areas where all the supposed hard core racists live? If you're going to use where the protests are the most prolonged, disruptive, and violent as a barometer, than Res Ipsa must be much more racist than I am.
Last edited by ICCrawler - ICjobs on Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Systemic Racism: Fact or Myth?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

So, I see Icarus isn‘t going to admit he’s a racist. Here’s his chance to set the example for the board, to lead the way.

- Doc
Post Reply