The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

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_Gunnar
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _Gunnar »

Trump Blames California for Fires. He Should Check to See Whose Land They’re On.

The federal government is much more to blame for California's fires than California, despite Trump's ignorant accusations.
With wildfires raging and smoke choking the West Coast’s cities and towns, President Donald Trump has repeatedly blamed state officials in California, Oregon and Washington for the conflagrations, suggesting they have done a poor job of managing their forests—even suggesting that they somehow rake the forests to prevent fire.

But when Trump met California officials this week for a briefing on the wildfires, CalFire director Thomas Porter showed him a map of California’s fires, most of which were located on territory the map colored green.

“All of the green," Porter told him, "is federal lands.”

As residents of the region know well, huge swaths of the American West are federally owned. Nearly 60 percent of the forests in California, 25 percent of the forests in Oregon, and 44 percent in Washington are national forests. For the most part, the forests burning across the West—the fires the president blames on state officials—are on federal lands.

Forest fire management is a complex issue, but one thing is clear: the federal commitment to it has been declining for years, and Trump has done little to reverse it. The federal government’s spending on fire prevention has been shrinking; the budget for vegetation management fell from approximately $240 million in 2001 to $180 million in 2015, a decline of 24 percent.


It's not because the need has decreased. According to the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, of the 10 years on record with the largest acreage burned, nine have occurred since 2000, including the peak year in 2015. With the increase in the number and intensity of wildfires, the cost of fighting them has grown substantially. A 2015 report by the Forest Service points out that “as more and more of the agency’s resources are spent each year to provide the firefighters, aircraft, and other assets necessary to protect lives, property, and natural resources from catastrophic wildfires, fewer and fewer funds and resources are available to support other agency work—including the very programs and restoration projects that reduce the fire threat.”

The problem, in part, is that until recently, the Forest Service had no way to increase its funding in bad fire years, so unanticipated costs of firefighting had to come out of funds originally set aside for other priorities, like land management. This same report noted that in 1995, firefighting made up 16 percent of the Forest Service’s annual appropriated budget; in 2020, for the first time, firefighting constituted a majority of the Forest Service’s annual budget.

Along with this shift in resources, there has also been a corresponding shift in staff, with a 39 percent reduction in all staff other than firefighting personnel. As a result, the agency was forced to redirect dollars and staff focused on measures that could reduce the risk of fires by improving forest health. The more money spent on fighting fires, the less was available to prevent them—clearly a “robbing Peter to pay Paul” scenario. Were this problem left unchecked, Forest Service would be devoting more than two-thirds of its budget to firefighting in 2025.

Recognizing the problem, the Obama administration went to Congress to fix it. The ask was simple—stop forcing the Forest Service to pay for firefighting with the money intended for forest management and other programs designed to protect fish and wildlife, provide outdoor recreation, and manage rangelands and wilderness areas—all part of the agency’s legislated mission—and, instead, treat these extreme fire events like the disasters they are, and pay for them out of disaster assistance funds.

After years of debate, Congress finally reached a compromise in 2018 to ease this zero-sum approach by allowing the Forest Service to tap into disaster assistance funding when firefighting costs exceeded the Forest Service’s annual fire suppression budget. They called it the “fire fix.”

. . .

Managing wildland fire is a collaborative effort that requires a coordinated approach. Efforts to politicize wildfire by questioning the connection to climate change—in spite of established science—and to cast blame or assign responsibility for catastrophic fire based on party affiliation (i.e., somehow it is a problem only for states with Democratic governors), or to short circuit required project reviews for health, safety or environmental impact are counterproductive—to say the least.

As the president engages in partisan blame-shifting about a crisis happening on his own watch, there's one positive example to draw from, and it's far from Washington. Firefighting itself, a responsibility shared by the federal government, states, local officials and tribal government, is a model of cooperation. The wildland firefighting community and the non-partisan manner in which it operates provide a model for how government should function to prevent the problem of wildfires in the first place—not by pointing fingers, debating their cause or shirking responsibility, but by working together to improve the health and resilience of our nation’s forests and the well-being of the people it serves.
So, while it is true that mismanagement of forest lands by government agencies, especially by federal agencies (as they own most of these lands) is a big part of the problem, it still remains true that global warming is an increasingly important contributing factor to the fire danger.

As mentioned in the above article, "Recognizing the problem, the Obama administration went to Congress to fix it." I'm sure that Trump probably tried to undo that, as well as weakening or eliminating so many other laudatory environmental initiatives and/or regulations initiated by Obama.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_subgenius
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _subgenius »

Gunnar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:39 am
Hooray for Scientific American! That was a powerful and timely endorsement and admonition. Hopefully the voters who take it to heart will sufficiently outnumber the scientifically illiterate fools who refuse to acquaint themselves with it, and heed that advice. It is literally a matter of life and death for many millions of earth's residents, both human and non-human.
Yes, because a real scientist takes their cues for voting from a magazine.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _subgenius »

Gunnar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:16 am
]

The federal government is much more to blame for California's fires than California, despite Trump's ignorant accusations.

[and/or regulations initiated by Obama.
You claim to be a man of science, how about you let us know what the science says about the regulations Obama put in place with regard to forest management in this context?
And then you can move the goalposts again.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Gunnar
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _Gunnar »

subgenius wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:46 am
Gunnar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:39 am
Hooray for Scientific American! That was a powerful and timely endorsement and admonition. Hopefully the voters who take it to heart will sufficiently outnumber the scientifically illiterate fools who refuse to acquaint themselves with it, and heed that advice. It is literally a matter of life and death for many millions of earth's residents, both human and non-human.
Yes, because a real scientist takes their cues for voting from a magazine.
No, you fool! Scientific American is not just any magazine. It takes its cues from real scientists, not the other way around -- the same highly respected scientists who are the main contributors to its contents. And real scientists do take take the magazine and its contents seriously -- whether or not they are contributing authors to it.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Gunnar
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _Gunnar »

subgenius wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:48 am
You claim to be a man of science, how about you let us know what the science says about the regulations Obama put in place with regard to forest management in this context?
And then you can move the goalposts again.
When have I ever claimed to be a man of science? I just strive to be a scientifically literate, well informed layman, with a great respect and admiration for scientists and their contributions to society and human knowledge and understanding.

What goalposts do you think I have moved? :confused: That is your specialty -- not mine.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_ajax18
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _ajax18 »

I want a President who will acknowledge the reality of climate change and have a plan to deal with it. I want a President who believes he doesn't have the right to go around Congress to use the power of the purse to harm the environment. Trump has been an anti-environment president. I will be voting for Biden/Harris.
I know you don't like the wall and I understand your concerns with the environment. But I think there's other things you need to consider about this election. While you and I may not agree on illegal immigration, I think we'd both agree that we want a booming economy. That's in the interest of both native born Americans and would be immigrants. I think US citizens should have the authority to decide who can come to the US. You might disagree with me on that. But that disagreement doesn't even matter if the economy is shut down and there is no job to fight over. I think you understand that the radical socialism supported by Bernie Sanders and the current Democratic party would be a disaster, just as it was a disaster in Russia, in China, in Venezuela, Cuba, Vietnam and everywhere else it has been put into practice. Politics aside, Biden will not be making the decisions if he is elected. He takes his marching orders from people like Bernie Sanders and he just doesn't really have the strength to resist that even if he wanted to at this point. This is what you'll be voting for in the Biden/Harris ticket and I hope you've considered that.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_ajax18
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _ajax18 »

I glad your children are healthy and strong. Dying breed refers to bad beliefs and actions. Many of who have those beliefs are getting old and dying, and many are younger but over time realize some of these beliefs are wrong. Your children will hopefully be apart of that group. Children do have a habit of ditching some or much of their parents beliefs as they grow older.
I once believed there was no global flood. I now believe it actually happened and can see how it was possible. I once believed religion was just a money making scheme. I don't anymore. Having my testimony restored has actually been pretty peaceful and comforting. It's wonderful having the spirit again. It's wonderful not to be constantly at war within my own mind. Such internal confliction left me as a tortured soul for decades and is no way to live and I'm not sure it was even necessary.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:02 pm

What do all of these data points have to do with one another? They show the inter-connectivity of life on this planet. The nature of this inter-connectivity does not recognize borders. It does not recognized races. It does not recognize economic systems. We are all connected on a biological level on this planet.

And humanity, which organizes itself into Nation-states, has institutions that are not suited for the paradigm of global inter-connectivity. Our human hubris tells us that our economic systems are sacrosanct, rather than the biological system that supports us all. We think we are saving the economic institutions, but the economy does not exist without a healthy human genome. And humanity's response to both Global Warming and Covid-19 show that our consciousness does not correctly perceive the relationship between man and our biological underpinnings, upon which the safety of our human genome rests.
Mine does. I perceived the interconnectedness of man and the natural world when I was a young child! I observed it. I noticed it. I attended to it. I experimented with it. I played in it. My eyes were opened at a very young age. I saw it in the ecosystems of the forest and ocean. In the Atlantic ocean and in the Catskills of NY. In tide pools, in creeks, in rivers, in trees, in dirt, in sand, and mud flats where I played.

I knew it. I knew it and shared it. I knew it and taught it to my own children. I knew it and taught it to children, parents, teachers and student teachers for decades!

How could we as the human race be ignorant of it! Story: I once had a parent who visited us for snack. We had fresh tomato slices on our plates. I reminded the children to save their seeds. The parent (and adult!) asked me "What are you going to do with the seeds?" "We'll plant them." "If you plant them what will they grow".

MY. GOD.

Everything in nature has a job to do. It is to the benefit of wildlife. It is to the benefit of US.

And we have failed to do our job. And what is the result?

We are committing environmental suicide.

For the believing crowd. The Bible assigns stewardship over the natural world to humans. We Christians have failed to do our job according to that which was given to us by God. Why? I say it's greed. The quest for more "stuff". More money, more land, bigger houses, more clothing, more cars, bigger cars than we need, bigger churches, high paid ministry, easy fixes to our dilemmas, and creature comforts.

How comfortable does the creation look to you now?

The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. Do believers not see this at play in today's world? Are we a part of that? Are we feeding it? Is this society so hung up on materialism that we can't see the absurdity of what we are doing? We get a job. We get stuff. We move up in the job. We buy a house to store our stuff. We buy more stuff. We get a bigger house to store our stuff. And when we can't afford an even bigger house (to store the stuff we've collected) we rent storage units in which to store the overflow! We don't own our stuff. Our stuff owns US!

What happened to the health status of our souls? Shouldn't we care about our spiritual health? Or do we just mindlessly roll the dice every day and never look back or look inward to what we are doing to ourselves and this planet that we were supposed to take care of?

In The Revelation we see the end of humanity as we know it. We see the final battle described. We see the end of this world as we know it. We see a "New Heaven" and "New Earth". Places where we believers believe we will reside for eternity where almost nothing is the same as where we began. Because so screwed up did humanity become that God has to rescue us from ourselves!

Truth. Right now we've got ourselves a simple, short term, and affordable solution. Call it self-made temporary rescue. An airline (with others soon to follow) is opening up offers for "Flights to nowhere". Why? So people can get off the planet for a couple of hours in order to escape this place before we round trip back to the airport.

Truth. Mankind is right now searching for a "New World". We're engaging in missions that would lead to the colonization of other planets.

Humans are doing this themselves. Not God. Humans who are seeing the end of the health of this planet ahead of them so they are looking for a way to bail out. Put it all behind them because we're unwilling to clean up our own mess. So we can dominate space like we've dominated this planet. And for many, a way to escape the mess we've made of this one and make rubbish of another planet? And then what? Hope to God that God himself sees what utter failures we are so He can come rescue us?

I ask you, what kind of insanity is this? All of it. All of us. Not just my appeal to the believing portion of society. Can't we do anything right? Can't we see that we are killing ourselves?

We need to stop trying to escape. We need to stop trying to run. We need to stop consuming and accumulating to soften the blow of our daily lives. We need to stop and face ourselves, and what we have done. What imbeciles we are!

No charge for the rant, folks! No charge at all!
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Themis
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:46 am
Gunnar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:39 am
Hooray for Scientific American! That was a powerful and timely endorsement and admonition. Hopefully the voters who take it to heart will sufficiently outnumber the scientifically illiterate fools who refuse to acquaint themselves with it, and heed that advice. It is literally a matter of life and death for many millions of earth's residents, both human and non-human.
Yes, because a real scientist takes their cues for voting from a magazine.
A well respected magazine for 175 years and never endorsed anyone for president finally does in this election. That seems pretty big. They must feel Trump is so bad then any other person who has run for president to endorse his competitor.
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_Themis
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Re: The lessons of the pandemic and global warming

Post by _Themis »

ajax18 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:21 am
I glad your children are healthy and strong. Dying breed refers to bad beliefs and actions. Many of who have those beliefs are getting old and dying, and many are younger but over time realize some of these beliefs are wrong. Your children will hopefully be apart of that group. Children do have a habit of ditching some or much of their parents beliefs as they grow older.
I once believed there was no global flood. I now believe it actually happened and can see how it was possible. I once believed religion was just a money making scheme. I don't anymore. Having my testimony restored has actually been pretty peaceful and comforting. It's wonderful having the spirit again. It's wonderful not to be constantly at war within my own mind. Such internal confliction left me as a tortured soul for decades and is no way to live and I'm not sure it was even necessary.
Funny you avoid questions about science because you don't know crap about it. It's too bad that as you think you got the spirit in your life that it hasn't helped you be less extreme racist. Going from supposedly not believing in a global flood to now believing in one just tells people you never had an understanding of the mountains of evidence out there. Funny also about how people like to pretend to have been a critical unbeliever to make it look like there conversion is based on critical thinking. At most you are just one of those who were rebelling from their religion for a time.
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