Climate Change

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canpakes
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Re: Climate Change

Post by canpakes »

ceeboo wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:17 pm
Alf'Omega wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:36 pm
Obama had it right when he alluded to scared people who cling to their guns and religion.
Here is Obama's full quote about people in small-town America that you reference.

"They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

It's interesting that you think "Obama had it right" when he made this demeaning and bigoted comment.

As to the rest of your very special post here, after thinking it over, I used great personal restraint and made a decision to simply pass.

Here's a bit more of that quote, as the one that you have above is missing a part of the sentence provided:

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."


It's not surprising that some folks might react that way. He didn't say that all have, or that all would. But some will, and the statement did forecast the reasons why some voters made the choice they did down the road, per reasons plainly and freely given by themselves.

Obama himself, during his 2008 campaign and with the climate change discussion in mind, promised to "create 5 million 'green' jobs." That promise was never really realized because the funding and programs proposed didn't make it through Congress. How large would the sacrifices have been in light of what we could have gained with both jobs and a smarter approach to climate issues than to depend solely on avoidance?
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canpakes
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Re: Climate Change

Post by canpakes »

Cultellus wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm
The credibility issue is with YOU! see above, you POS. People don't think that the drama and name-calling is because of scientists, they think you choose to do that crap because you are a bigot POFS.

Irony is dead. : D

Now that you’ve engaged in drama and name-calling - and before you completely trash your own credibility - what are some of the conclusions from scientists about climate change, that you find compelling?
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ceeboo
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Re: Climate Change

Post by ceeboo »

Cultellus wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm
This is becoming one of my favorite threads ever.
Your bar is obviously quite low (like under ground level low) :)
The credibility issue is not with the scientists.
Thanks! I thought that was made fantastically obvious - more than once.

That saved me from having to write a fairly lengthy reply to Chap.
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Gadianton
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Gadianton »

and what is the purpose of gripping society with FEAR? Control!
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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canpakes
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Re: Climate Change

Post by canpakes »

Gadianton wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:52 pm
and what is the purpose of gripping society with FEAR? Control!
Those evil scientists are just trying to get you to by solar panels from Big Solar.

Reject their controlling fear play, Gad. Just keep paying Big Electric Utility for their power.
Chap
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Chap »

canpakes wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:20 pm
Cultellus wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm
The credibility issue is with YOU! see above, you POS. People don't think that the drama and name-calling is because of scientists, they think you choose to do that crap because you are a bigot POFS.

Irony is dead. : D

Now that you’ve engaged in drama and name-calling - and before you completely trash your own credibility - what are some of the conclusions from scientists about climate change, that you find compelling?
I take it that was Cultellus talking to me? That does rather seem to confirm my view that I am not missing anything worthwhile by leaving him on ignore.

And what is this weird idea about my credibility? I don't generally assert important points on my own unsupported authority - which is of course in principle zero, since I am an anonymous poster with no in real life reality, like the rest of us. Anybody who does not think I have given enough back-up can always ask me for it, in any case.

As an advance payment, here is a rather good recent news piece from a top scientific journal, Nature:

IPCC climate report: Earth is warmer than it’s been in 125,000 years
Landmark assessment says that greenhouse gases are unequivocally driving extreme weather — but that nations can still prevent the worst impacts.

Modern society’s continued dependence on fossil fuels is warming the world at a pace that is unprecedented in the past 2,000 years — and its effects are already apparent as record droughts, wildfires and floods devastate communities worldwide — according to a landmark report from the United Nations on the state of climate science. The assessment from the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) says things are poised to get worse if greenhouse-gas emissions continue, and makes it clear that the future of the planet depends, in large part, on the choices that humanity makes today.

“The evidence is everywhere: if we don’t act, the situation is going to get really bad,” says Xuebin Zhang, a climatologist at Environment Canada in Toronto, Ontario, and a coordinating lead author on the report, released on 9 August.

Diagnosing Earth: the science behind the IPCC’s upcoming climate report
Compiled by more than 200 scientists over the course of several years and approved by 195 governments during a virtual meeting last week, the report is the first in a trio assessing the state of climate change and efforts to mitigate it and adapt to it. The document — part of the IPCC’s sixth climate assessment since 1990 — arrives less than three months before the next major global climate summit in Glasgow, UK. There, governments will have the opportunity to make pledges to reverse course and decrease their emissions.

If global emissions hit net zero by around 2050 — a target that many countries have committed to over the past year — then the world can achieve the goal laid out in the 2015 Paris accord and limit global warming to 1.5 °C above pre-industrial levels over the course of the twenty-first century, says Valérie Masson-Delmotte, a climatologist at the Laboratory of Climate and Environmental Sciences in Gif-sur-Yvette, France, and co-chair of the physical-science working group that produced the current report. “The climate we experience in the future depends on our decisions now,” she says.

Hotting up
Earth’s global surface temperature has increased by around 1.1 °C compared with the average in 1850–1900 — a level that hasn’t been witnessed since 125,000 years ago, before the most recent ice age. This is just one of the blunt facts appearing in a summary released with the IPCC report that is intended for policymakers.

The overall assessment underscores efforts to pin down how much more temperatures will rise if atmospheric emissions continue, and provides climate scientists’ most confident projections yet for the twenty-first century. One key metric that researchers use to make their projections is ‘climate sensitivity’, a measure of how much long-term warming would be expected on Earth from a doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations compared with pre-industrial levels. Although the IPCC’s best estimate remains at 3 °C, the report reduces the uncertainty in that figure, narrowing the probable range to 2.5–4 °C, using evidence such as modern and ancient climate records. This compares with 1.5–4.5 °C, the wider range for sensitivity reported in the IPCC’s last climate assessment, released in 2013.


The hard truths of climate change — by the numbers
This narrowing of climate sensitivity bolsters scientists’ confidence in their projections for what will happen on Earth in a number of different scenarios. In a moderate emissions scenario that features little change from today’s global-development patterns, for instance, average global temperatures will rise by 2.1–3.5 °C, according to the IPCC report. This is well above the 1.5–2 °C limit laid out as a goal by the nations that signed the 2015 Paris climate agreement. Even in a scenario in which governments aggressively cut their greenhouse-gas emissions, the report projects that global temperatures are likely to surpass the 1.5 °C threshold in the coming years, before dropping back below it towards the end of the century.

“Is it still possible to limit global warming to 1.5 °C? The answer is yes,” says Maisa Rojas, a coordinating lead author on the report and director of the University of Chile’s Center for Climate and Resilience Research in Santiago. “But unless there are immediate, rapid and large-scale reductions of all greenhouse gases, limiting global warming to 1.5 °C will be beyond reach.”

Extreme impacts
The report lists a dizzying array of impacts that climate change has had on Earth — and that are already evident from pole to pole. The coverage of sea ice in the Arctic during the late summer has been lower over the past decade than it has been in at least 1,000 years. The ongoing global retreat of glaciers is unparalleled in at least 2,000 years. And oceans are heating up at a pace not seen since the end of the most recent ice age, 11,000 years ago.

Beyond these sobering measurements, the IPCC report emphasizes some of the most significant scientific advances in understanding the regional effects of climate change, including where extreme heat, precipitation and drought have hit hardest. Extreme drought, for instance, has affected various regions around the globe, with particularly widespread impacts in the Mediterranean region and in southwest Africa.


Can the world’s most influential climate report carry on?
As temperatures rise in the future, says Zhang, extreme weather events will become increasingly severe. Over land, an extreme temperature event that occurred once every 50 years in centuries past will probably occur every 3–4 years if Earth reaches 2 °C above pre-industrial temperatures, according to the report. The world should also expect more compound events, such as heatwaves and long-term droughts occurring simultaneously.

“We are not going be hit just by one thing, we are going to be hit by multiple things at the same time,” says Zhang.

Irreversible changes
Global warming’s impact on bodies such as glaciers, ice sheets and oceans, which adjust slowly to rising temperatures, will continue to be felt for centuries or even millennia, according to the report. Sea levels around the world are projected to rise by 2–3 metres over the next 2,000 years, even if temperatures are held in check at 1.5 °C of warming, and up to 6 metres with 2 °C of warming, which would alter entire coastlines currently inhabited by hundreds of millions of people.

The report warns that some of the most severe impacts of climate warming — such as ice-sheet collapse, massive forest loss or an abrupt change in ocean circulation — cannot be ruled out, particularly in scenarios in which high emissions and significant warming occur towards the end of the century. But it notes that the biggest uncertainty in all climate-change projections is how humans will act.


IPCC says limiting global warming to 1.5 °C will require drastic action
Although the IPCC has been warning about the perils of global warming for three decades, governments have yet to take the kind of action necessary to transition to clean-energy sources and halt greenhouse-gas emissions. But perhaps things are about to change, says Zhang, if only because people all over the world are starting to seeing the impacts of climate change around them.

“Climate change is happening, and people actually feel it,” says Zhang. “The report just provides scientific validation to the general public that, yes, what you feel is actually true.”

But the IPCC report also states something even more important: many of the most dire effects of climate change can still be avoided if aggressive action is taken now. Every degree of warming matters, says Rojas. “That is a very powerful idea,” she says. “The future is in our hands.”

Nature 596, 171-172 (2021)

doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-021-02179-1

The IPCC report referred to is here:

Climate Change 2021: The Physical Science Basis

And here are its headline statements:
A. The Current State of the Climate
A.1 It is unequivocal that human influence has warmed the atmosphere, ocean and land. Widespread and rapid changes in the atmosphere, ocean, cryosphere and biosphere have occurred.
A.2 The scale of recent changes across the climate system as a whole and the present state of many aspects of the climate system are unprecedented over many centuries to many thousands of years.
A.3 Human-induced climate change is already affecting many weather and climate extremes in every region across the globe. Evidence of observed changes in extremes such as heatwaves, heavy precipitation, droughts, and tropical cyclones, and, in particular, their attribution to human influence, has strengthened since the Fifth Assessment Report (AR5).
A.4 Improved knowledge of climate processes, paleoclimate evidence and the response of the climate system to increasing radiative forcing gives a best estimate of equilibrium climate sensitivity of 3°C, with a narrower range compared to AR5.

B. Possible Climate Futures
B.1 Global surface temperature will continue to increase until at least the mid-century under all emissions scenarios considered. Global warming of 1.5°C and 2°C will be exceeded during the 21st century unless deep reductions in carbon dioxide (CO2) and other greenhouse gas emissions occur in the coming decades.
B.2 Many changes in the climate system become larger in direct relation to increasing global warming. They include increases in the frequency and intensity of hot extremes, marine heatwaves, and heavy precipitation, agricultural and ecological droughts in some regions, and proportion of intense tropical cyclones, as well as reductions in Arctic sea ice, snow cover and permafrost.
B.3 Continued global warming is projected to further intensify the global water cycle, including its variability, global monsoon precipitation and the severity of wet and dry events.
B.4 Under scenarios with increasing CO2 emissions, the ocean and land carbon sinks are projected to be less effective at slowing the accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere.
B.5 Many changes due to past and future greenhouse gas emissions are irreversible for centuries to millennia, especially changes in the ocean, ice sheets and global sea level.

C. Climate Information for Risk Assessment and Regional Adaptation
C.1 Natural drivers and internal variability will modulate human-caused changes, especially at regional scales and in the near term, with little effect on centennial global warming. These modulations are important to consider in planning for the full range of possible changes.
C.2 With further global warming, every region is projected to increasingly experience concurrent and multiple changes in climatic impact-drivers. Changes in several climatic impact-drivers would be more widespread at 2°C compared to 1.5°C global warming and even more widespread and/or pronounced for higher warming levels.
C.3 Low-likelihood outcomes, such as ice sheet collapse, abrupt ocean circulation changes, some compound extreme events and warming substantially larger than the assessed very likely range of future warming cannot be ruled out and are part of risk assessment.

D. Limiting Future Climate Change
D.1 From a physical science perspective, limiting human-induced global warming to a specific level requires limiting cumulative CO2 emissions, reaching at least net zero CO2 emissions, along with strong reductions in other greenhouse gas emissions. Strong, rapid and sustained reductions in CH4 emissions would also limit the warming effect resulting from declining aerosol pollution and would improve air quality.
D.2 Scenarios with low or very low greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions (SSP1-1.9 and SSP1- 2.6) lead within years to discernible effects on greenhouse gas and aerosol concentrations, and air quality, relative to high and very high GHG emissions scenarios (SSP3-7.0 or SSP5-8.5). Under these contrasting scenarios, discernible differences in trends of global surface temperature would begin to emerge from natural variability within around 20 years, and over longer time periods for many other climatic impact-drivers (high confidence).

I suppose that by posting this stuff I have once again proved that I am a credibility-fee bigot* 'Excrement fragment' (for thus I decode 'POS'')? Sigh. Just can't do anything right, can I?


*By the way, didn't that word once refer to people with an extreme and irrational dislike for Jews, blacks, Catholics or whatever? It now simply seems to mean 'person for whom the speaker has a strong dislike'. Just saying.
Last edited by Chap on Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Alf'Omega
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Alf'Omega »

Cultellus wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:00 pm
Gadianton wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:52 pm
and what is the purpose of gripping society with FEAR? Control!
This simple, simple, simple post.

This is HUGE and simple.

Control is misunderstood sometimes, oftentimes. Control is perceived and viewed as something that people want to take away from others, and never give up their own control. That is just, not, the case. Most people are trying to give their control away. They think they are peacemakers. They think they are contributing to society or a partner or a family or The One True Church. They are pussies. Big, huge pussies. There, I said it.

Society is not necessarily gripped by fear. Many people will embrace it and give away control, then lie down and expect others to lead or do the work. They are relieved in a way. They want the responsibility to go away.

But the irony of it all...pussies are being manipulative when they give their control away in an irresponsible way. It creates chaos not solutions.

The irony in all this is that the Right has been using this tactic to scare their sheeple for more than two decades now. FOX News has been pressing fear and outrage on just about everything. From, they're coming to get your guns, to the Socialist Democrats are coming to take away your healthcare, to the Left wants to murder children to the Left wants to ban Christmas, etc etc etc. Nothing but manufactured outrage to keep the naïve sheeple voting for them. Every day it is gloom and doom, on the verge of apocalypse, whenever a Democrat is elected. And no matter how close we actually come to that under Republican administrations, it is always spun as some unfortunate consequence of leftist policies or what not. So p[lease, stop pretending you really believe your own BS about the Left trying to control anything. That has and always has been the goal of the Right and they're doing it with lies and you don't care because the lies are just things you like to hear. For God's sake, you cannot even go to the grocery store without a loaded gun, and yet you think we're the ones living in fear?

The great example of Society giving away control is when unions became a gradual relic of the past, leading to lower wages for the majority and skyrocketing salaries for the top 1%. How did this happen? With FUD. Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Can't let the workers have any leverage in negotiating their own wages because that's making us like Communist China or the USSR, amirite?
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canpakes
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Re: Climate Change

Post by canpakes »

Chap wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:10 pm
:: controlling, science-y stuff snipped ::

Chap, how dare you try to control everyone by posting your controlling, science-y stuff, and asking folks to think about it with their own minds.

You should instead just tell people that they’re being controlled by others if they dare to discuss climate change specifics, and tell them that no-one has credibility.

(Not that relying on that as ones sole argument isn’t the biggest fear and control ploy in the game, but just don’t pay attention to that, please. Thanks.)
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ceeboo
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Re: Climate Change

Post by ceeboo »

Chap,

This is getting a little bizarre. I know you spent a lot of your time posting that wall of text thinking that your scientific studies where going to help you in some way. I am sorry (I sincerely am) but you really need to get up to speed in this thread.

For your benefit, I will try this again: The credibility issue that a few of us have been proposing is not with science or scientists, so you don't need to post any more scientific studies - it's not necessary.

I really hope that was helpful.
Chap
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Chap »

ceeboo wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:32 pm
The credibility issue that a few of us have been proposing is not with science or scientists,
Good.

So can we get on and devote our energies to making sure that our governments take the action they need to take in order to give our children the biggest possible chance of having a livable planet to pass to their children?

What's your problem?
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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