Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

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MG 2.0
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by MG 2.0 »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:56 pm
hauslern wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:31 pm
https://interpreterfoundation.org/estim ... idence-13/

" Many faithful scholars have long seen chiasmus and other assorted ancient literary structures as formidable evidence on the side of the Book of Mormon, and this analysis does nothing to change that perception."

Really?
I took a quick look at this and saw a chart marking results for things considered thus far. It had a huge favorable number for early modern English. I am almost at a loss for words to say how ...(unreliable that would be).

I was going to wonder how much consideration would be given to chiasmus form being a natural organizing principal that might be more common in oral compositions. How about extemporaneous sermons by people with some experience exhorting? When reading the Book of Mormon I wondered if some patterns fit a sort of rhythmic pattern natural to Joseph's oral method of composition. Ancient writers might have found that as well.They may have been influenced by oral memory and exhortation techniques.

After seeing the Early Modern English thing I will not try to read the article to find out if such matters are considered unless some people here say there is some significant observations in it.
//////
warning,,, I have no academic credentials in the study of oral traditions or recitations or in ancient poetry and its links with oral preservation.
You might find the essay I linked to informative if you haven’t already read it, huckleberry.

Regards,
MG
Philo Sofee
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by Philo Sofee »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:56 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:37 pm
Chiasmus in Dr. Seuss has proven to me he was inspired and his writings are scripture, scripture for kids. That's about all the energy I can muster on this.

Are you a proponent of Loftes Tryk? He proposes that Joseph Smith did not know about chiasmus, praises the sophistication and elegance of the chiastic structure in the Book of Mormon, and ascribes this structure to Satan.

pg.5
https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

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MG
:lol: Uh, no.
MG 2.0
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by MG 2.0 »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:59 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:56 am
Are you a proponent of Loftes Tryk? He proposes that Joseph Smith did not know about chiasmus, praises the sophistication and elegance of the chiastic structure in the Book of Mormon, and ascribes this structure to Satan.

pg.5
https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

Regards,
MG
:lol: Uh, no.
I would imagine that you’ve read the essay I linked to? I read it a number of years ago. You compared Chiasmus to Dr. Seuss. Giving this essay even a cursory perusal puts that comparison to shame.

If not Satan, what do you ascribe Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon to?

Every so often this topic comes up and we hear, “Dr. Seuss”, D&C, The Late War, The Quran, etc. And then everyone kinda just moves on saying, “Nothing to see here!”

Dr. Seuss…Riiight.

Regards,
MG
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Dr Moore
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by Dr Moore »

Let me guess.

Another non sequitur statistical algorithm which magically yields astronomical odds against some thing that he claims is a proxy for chiasmus, but has no demonstrable connection with chiasmus.

And unsupported claims that Joseph couldn’t possibly have known how to construct chiasms in a dictated work. And dismissal or neglecting to mention that in-out was a popular storytelling model, even then.
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by huckelberry »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:12 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:59 am
:lol: Uh, no.
I would imagine that you’ve read the essay I linked to? I read it a number of years ago. You compared Chiasmus to Dr. Seuss. Giving this essay even a cursory perusal puts that comparison to shame.

If not Satan, what do you ascribe Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon to?

Every so often this topic comes up and we hear, “Dr. Seuss”, D&C, The Late War, The Quran, etc. And then everyone kinda just moves on saying, “Nothing to see here!”

Dr. Seuss…Riiight.

Regards,
MG
I think it is most likely that chiasmus in the Book of Mormon was a result of Joseph Smith.
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Moksha
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by Moksha »

MG, what are your thoughts on chiasmus in Paradise Lost and Beowulf?

Should the chiasmus in the Quran be an indicator that it was written by a prophet of Allah?
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by IHAQ »

hauslern wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:31 pm
https://interpreterfoundation.org/estim ... idence-13/

" Many faithful scholars have long seen chiasmus and other assorted ancient literary structures as formidable evidence on the side of the Book of Mormon, and this analysis does nothing to change that perception."

Really?
From Rasmussen…
Chiasmus has been a mainstay of Book of Mormon apologetics for more than five decades, but the ease with which chiasmus can be found in just about any book has led some to doubt its utility as evidence for the Book of Mormon.
But…
Chiasmus remains formidable evidence in the Book of Mormon’s favor.
This kind of so-called scholarly article would be laughed out of any institution or publication that took its scholarly credentials seriously. It’s apologetic spam.
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by Philo Sofee »

IHAQ wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:29 am
hauslern wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:31 pm
https://interpreterfoundation.org/estim ... idence-13/

" Many faithful scholars have long seen chiasmus and other assorted ancient literary structures as formidable evidence on the side of the Book of Mormon, and this analysis does nothing to change that perception."

Really?
From Rasmussen…
Chiasmus has been a mainstay of Book of Mormon apologetics for more than five decades, but the ease with which chiasmus can be found in just about any book has led some to doubt its utility as evidence for the Book of Mormon.
But…
Chiasmus remains formidable evidence in the Book of Mormon’s favor.
This kind of so-called scholarly article would be laughed out of any institution or publication that took its scholarly credentials seriously. It’s apologetic spam.
The overwhelming bias is obvious except to him who owns it. Chiasmus is just blah, blah, blah everywhere, but when its here in a book I love and believe in scripture... HOLY COW MAN! TRUTH!!! PROPHETS!!! GOD!!! I AM SAVED!!!
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by Billy Shears »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:17 am
Let me guess.

Another non sequitur statistical algorithm which magically yields astronomical odds against some thing that he claims is a proxy for chiasmus, but has no demonstrable connection with chiasmus.

And unsupported claims that Joseph couldn’t possibly have known how to construct chiasms in a dictated work. And dismissal or neglecting to mention that in-out was a popular storytelling model, even then.
Your first paragraph is exactly right. In this case, the proxy for chiasmus is the “inverted type-token ratio,” which is used by quantitative linguists to assess the working vocabulary of an author. It is simply the total number of words in a text divided by the number of unique words.

Kyler asserts that in addition to measuring the working vocabulary of an author, the inverted type-token ratio measures how much chiasmus is present in a book.

It turns out the odds of the Book of Mormon having such a small working vocabulary are a hundred trillion to one, which means that the odds of it using chiasmus in a uniquely ancient way is also a hundred trillion to one. This piece of incredible evidence overcame the last doubts we had about the Book of Mormon, and combined with the prior episodes we’ve overcome the seemingly insurmountable prior odds and are now 99.999999997% certain the Book of Mormon is authentic.

It turns out that the D&C also has a small working vocabulary. A lesser statistician might take this as a reason to doubt their theory about the relationship between type-token ratios and ancient chiasmus. But not Kyler. Kyler thinks this is evidence that the D&C was originally written in an ancient language and then translated by the Book of Mormon ghost committee into English, which is further evidence that these books are all authentic.

This raises a serious question:

Is Kyler punking us?

Final Technical Criticism
Kyler’s mistakes are getting repetitious and there is no point in responding anymore. But I do want to make one final remark about a glaring technical mistake Kyler consistently makes that somehow slipped through his peer review process and that I haven’t heard anybody comment on.

In Bayesian statistics, you ask “What is the probability you’d see this basket of evidence if hypothesis A is true? What is the probability you’d see this basket of evidence if hypothesis B is true?” In a continuous statistical model, “the probability of seeing this basket of evidence” is given by the height of a probability distribution function (PDF) at a specific point corresponding to the evidence, or by the height of a likelihood function at a specific point corresponding to the evidence.

However, that isn’t what Kyler does. Rather, he consistently uses the p-value from Fisher’s significance testing. This corresponds to the height of the cumulative distribution function (CDF)—not to the height of the PDF. This makes his math an invalid Frankensteinian mishmash of Fisherian statistics and Bayesian statistics. Kyler might argue that the height of the CDF is a good-enough proxy for the height of the PDF, but that simply isn't true. His models are built on unacknowledged, sometimes contradictory, and always extraordinarily unlikely assumptions. Even if all of those assumptions were exactly true, he's still plugging the wrong numbers from his statistical analysis into the Bayesian equations.

Who peer reviewed this?
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Re: Rasmussen on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon

Post by Dr Exiled »

What do we learn from this? Is it that controlling the inputs gives whatever output desired? Bro. Rasmussen seems to be doing this and so what is the point but to mislead/manipulate some questioning soul into thinking that scientific reasoning backs up the clearly false historicity argument? Shame on him and his backers if that is the case.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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