NEED A TRANSPLANT? BETTER GET VACCINATED

[Xenophon]

Maybe you're right, but there seems to be a substantial number of Americans who resist doing something when told they must do it, no matter who is the authority figure who tells them they must do it. I get the impression that conservative Republicans are particularly prone to this tendency, sometimes even when the authority figure is a fellow Republican, for whom they voted. I think some of them would similarly rebel if they were ordered not to do something. Maybe being ordered by an authority figure to not get vaccinated would not "move the needle" very far for most of them, but I think it likely that the needle would move at least a little bit farther for some of them if our Democrat President were that authority figure. (I realize, of course, that this is useless speculation, because Biden is very unlikely to do any such thing).

It is possible but I think I'm much more in agreeance with Chap's take. That being that the issue is that doing nothing is very easy and our brains often think that is the "safest" course of action. Getting vaccinated is something that requires a decision, a commitment. People require good reasons in order to take on that perceived risk and unfortunately not everyone has seen those reasons yet.

It can be difficult for us on the outside to understand their hesitancy but if we're to help people get over it we'll have to just be better. Keep trying to have those candid conversations where we engage on a level that speaks to them.

[Chap]

Just to recall how effective vaccination is in keeping you alive in comparison with not getting vaccinated:

From the British Medical Journal:

Covid-19: Unvaccinated face 11 times risk of death from delta variant, CDC data show

BMJ 2021; 374 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2282 (Published 16 September 2021)
Cite this as: BMJ 2021;374:n228

Unvaccinated Americans have died at 11 times the rate of those fully vaccinated since the delta variant became the dominant strain, indicate surveillance data gathered over the summer by the US Centers for Disease Control.

Vaccinated people were 10 times less likely to be admitted to hospital and five times less likely to be infected than unvaccinated people, found one study that tracked adults across 13 states and cities.1

Levels of protection were lower than were conferred by vaccines offered at the end of spring, the study found. Vaccine efficacy has declined since the delta variant became dominant around 20 June. The decline in efficacy against hospital admission or death was small, but the protection offered against infection has slipped more significantly.

From 4 April to 20 June unvaccinated people died from covid-19 at 16.6 times the rate among the fully vaccinated (95% confidence interval 13.5 to 20.4). Between 20 June and 17 July that rate fell to 11.3 (9.1 to 13.9). Before 20 June admissions of unvaccinated people with covid-19 to hospital were running at 13.3 (11.3 to 15.6) times the rate among the vaccinated, but this had fallen to 10.4 (8.1 to 13.3) after that date.

Unvaccinated people were infected at 11.1 (7.8 to 15.8) times the rate of the vaccinated before 20 June but at only 4.6 (2.5 to 8.5) times the rate thereafter.

These figures represent declines in crude efficacy, for all vaccine types combined, from 94% to 91% for death, 92% to 90% for hospital admissions, and 91% to 78% for infection.

The delta variant now accounts for over 99% of new infections in the US. Just over half (54%) of the total population is now fully vaccinated, with 63% having received at least one shot.

The CDC study tracked 569 142 covid-19 cases, 34 972 hospital admissions, and 6132 deaths. Of the vaccinated people, 92% had received mRNA vaccines, the remainder the Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) vaccine.

Efficacy declines with age
The decline in vaccine efficacy was greatest in the over-65 age group, the study found. This might reflect declining immunity in people who were vaccinated early, noted the authors of another CDC study that also found lower protection levels in older vaccine recipients.2

Vaccines were 89% (85% to 92%) effective in preventing covid-19 hospital admissions among adults aged under 75 but 76% (64% to 84%) effective in those over 75, found this study, which reviewed 32 867 emergency department visits that led to coronavirus tests.

The overall level of protection against hospital admission for covid-19 remained high, at 86%. But this study also showed, for the first time, substantial variation between the different vaccines. The Moderna vaccine was 92% effective in preventing emergency care visits for covid-19, while the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 77% effective and the Janssen vaccine 65% effective.

This apparent advantage of Moderna is a new finding but is consistent with another, as yet unpublished study,3 the authors noted.

A third CDC study conducted at five urban Veterans Affairs hospitals, which measured the performance of mRNA vaccines only, picked up some of the same signals.4 Vaccine efficacy against hospital admission did not fall as the delta variant arrived but was persistently lower in the over-65s, at 79.8% (67.7% to 87.4%), than in adults under 65, at 95.1% (89.1% to 97.8%).

The Moderna vaccine was 91.6% (83.5% to 95.7%) effective overall at preventing hospital admission and the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine 83.4% (74% to 89.4%).

There was no difference in vaccine efficacy between white and black Veterans Affairs patients. There was also no difference between people who were vaccinated more than 90 days previously and those whose last shot was more recent.

The data offered “further evidence of the power of vaccination,” said CDC director Rochelle Walensky, presenting the three studies’ findings at a White House briefing. “As we have shown, study after study, vaccination works.”

Vaccination works. Being fit helps too, but is no substitute.

[Xenophon]

I know one person who passed away and didn't get the vaccine and three who had it and passed away. You guys are sick in the head. Does the vaccine work? Yes. For the most part yes. Is it a cure all? Xxxk no!! We should preaching from the highest mountains that people should be exercising and trying to get to the ideal body weight for their size. The CDC published a report that says 73% of deceased covid patiens had obesity or were overweight. Also, good nutrition and hydration are key to help in fighting covid once infected. WALKING!!! EXERCISE!!! And making sure you're taking plenty of vitamins if your levels are off, especially vitamin C, D and E.

That is a fun take and all AM but as already been discussed with you I think it misses the mark entirely. There have been decades of trying to get the American population back into shape. As you well know it is a process that takes time and commitment from each individual to overcome a slew of barriers to a healthy weight. In the middle of a pandemic with a virus that is fairly good at transmitting itself and not too shabby on the killing us front either, time is not a luxury many people have. I'm all for supporting initiatives that lead to healthier lifestyles but that isn't mutually exclusive to following other recommended pieces of medical advice, like getting vaccinated.

The other part worth noting is that even if your 73% statistic is true (I'd love the source on that. I've only seen a combined study for all outcomes, nothing so definitive on deaths) is that still means that 27%, or nearly 200,000, of those that died in the US didn't have issues of weight impacting their outcome.

We know that next to nothing about our health is entirely one dimensional. It requires tackling the problem from multiple angles. Yes, eating right and exercising and maintaining a healthy weight is a piece of the puzzle. It doesn't mean that other angles aren't just as important or as viable.

[Chap]

In the middle of a pandemic with a virus that is fairly good at transmitting itself and not too shabby on the killing us front either, time is not a luxury many people have. I'm all for supporting initiatives that lead to healthier lifestyles but that isn't mutually exclusive to following other recommended pieces of medical advice, like getting vaccinated.

Yup. I hope A-m was not saying "Get fit and you won't need the vaccine to protect you" (I don't think he could really have meant that), but even if he did mean that and he was correct (which the figures indicate he is not), the only thing that one can do to face the real and present danger of the highly infectious delta variant here and now is to get vaccinated. There's just no time to embark on a get-fit program.

And if we don't like the idea of seeing our fellow-humans dying unnecessarily, we need to do what we can do get them to be vaccinated. Though as we have seen, that is likely to be pretty difficult, especially if they or friends or family members have openly committed themselves to anti-vax positions.

Isn't that true, A-m?

[Xenophon]

You're right, Cultellus. I do hope for a reaction from people. I happen to accept the overwhelming evidence that getting vaccinated is one of the best things you can do for surviving COVID. If we disagree on that, fine that is your prerogative but I think I'm on pretty solid ground.

The rest of your post is a bit on the dramatic side though. I'm needling and harassing people in my life (primarily friends and family) by *checks notes* asking them to talk to their trusted family doctor... okay.

That said, you're damn right I pushed my father get to vaxxed. I want him to see his grandchildren grow up, I selfishly like having him around. Guess what, I also push him to manage his diabetes better, I pushed him to follow doctors orders during his cancer battle and after he got better I pushed him to go after a promotion even though he thought he was too old for it. Just like he pushes me to be a better human. That is what loved ones are supposed to do. In all of those instances I didn't remove his right to choose. I offered my opinion and perspective and he weighed and considered it with many other inputs. I happen to agree with the decision he made but I'd still love him if he didn't, if I didn't love people who made decisions I disagree with the world would be a lonely place.

You act as if I'm kicking in strangers doors and jamming a needle into their arm. The majority of conversations I've had out in the world about vaccines were not initiated by me. Yes, I've advocated here for candid conversations with people where we should acknowledge that they have a very real perspectives and opinions. Personally I think the world you apparently live in where I can't even talk to people about my perspective on a topic sounds tragic.

Also, if you'll try to just go with the words I write on the screen instead of rewording it for your own outrage you'll probably be way less shocked by the things I say.

[Some Schmo]

This guy has basically said he can't get vaccinated now cause he was politically in the anti-side and he can't admit we were right. It is our fault for making fun of him or insulting him. Which is funny cause the mutual friend is actually super conservative, he just didn't follow Trump. This anti-vaxx guy has gone just short of saying that if anything bad happens to him it is now our fault. This is a man who has non-ironically complained many times about liberal snowflakes. Though I guess in no true Scotsman fashion, it is impossible for an alpha male like himself to be a snowflake.

I suppose this is the same brand of logic people used to blame others for their idiotic Trump vote. What an incredible display of immaturity, blaming others for your own stupid decisions.

[Chap]

Meanwhile, a very big study conducted in France tells us (yet again) how vaccines drastically reduce people's chance of becoming seriously ill or dying with COVID-19.


French study of over 22m people finds vaccines cut severe Covid risk by 90%

Largest study of its kind also finds vaccines appear to protect against worst effects of Delta variant

Vaccination reduces the risk of dying or being hospitalised with Covid-19 by 90%, a French study of 22.6 million people over the age of 50 has found.

The research published on Monday also found that vaccines appear to protect against the worst effects of the most prevalent virus strain, the Delta variant.

“This means that those who are vaccinated are nine times less at risk of being hospitalised or dying from Covid-19 than those who have not been vaccinated,” the epidemiologist Mahmoud Zureik, who oversaw the research, told Agence France-Presse.

The study – the largest of its kind so far – was carried out by Epi-Phare a scientific group set up by France’s health system, its national health insurance fund, l’Assurance Maladie (CNAM), and the country’s ANSM medicines agency.

Researchers compared 11.3 million vaccinated over-50s with the same number of unvaccinated from the same age group between 27 December 2020, when vaccinations began in France, and 20 July this year.

They found “a reduction in the risk of hospitalisation superior to 90%” from the 14th day after the second dose and a similar reduction in the number of deaths from Covid-19. Similar findings have previously been published in Israel, the UK and the US.

The vaccines’ effectiveness in combatting the most serious symptoms of Covid did not diminish during the five-month period of the study, they said. The results were the same no matter whether the patient was given the Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna or Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.

The Janssen one-dose shot, authorised later in France, was not included as the researchers felt there had not been enough patients or time to properly study its effectiveness.

Researchers only had a month between the emergence of the Delta variant in France and the end of the study, but results showed the vaccines reduced the risk of serious symptoms and death by 84% among the over-75s and 92% for the 50-74 age group.

“This is a very short period to evaluate the real impact of the vaccination on this variant,” Zureik said, adding that research was continuing into the effect of vaccines on the Delta variant.

To ensure the closest possible comparison, researchers paired vaccinated and unvaccinated people of the same age and sex living in the same region. The study looked only at the most serious symptoms of infection and did not examine if the vaccines stopped people becoming infected or transmitting the virus.

Zureik said avoiding the most serious infections was “the main public health objective”. “An epidemic without serious infections is no longer an epidemic,” he added.

The report concludes: “All the vaccines [studied] against Covid-19 are highly effective and have a major effect on the reductions of serious forms of Covid-19 among people aged 50 years and older living at the current time in France. The continuing research by Epi-Phare will allow us to measure the evolution of this effectiveness over a longer period and better establish the effects on the Delta variant.”

Remind me again why medically normal people over 50 would decide not to get vaccinated?

Oh, sorry - I forgot the answer "Because you said they should". My fault, I know.

[Jersey Girl]

I know one person who passed away and didn't get the vaccine and three who had it and passed away. You guys are sick in the head. Does the vaccine work? Yes. For the most part yes. Is it a cure all? Xxxk no!!

And not one person on this board has claimed that.

We should preaching from the highest mountains that people should be exercising and trying to get to the ideal body weight for their size. The CDC published a report that says 73% of deceased covid patiens had obesity or were overweight. Also, good nutrition and hydration are key to help in fighting covid once infected. WALKING!!! EXERCISE!!! And making sure you're taking plenty of vitamins if your levels are off, especially vitamin C, D and E.

Those issues have been raised here repeatedly since the onset of the pandemic. Thanks for the newsflash.

[Jersey Girl]

The reality is that Jersey's source of information on the whereabouts of Brian Laundrie is exactly the same as her source of information about vaccines. EXACTLY the same.

Would you care to list the single source that you seem to imply that I use? It would do you well to pay attention to what you are reading here instead of trying to characterize the activity of posters whose posts you clearly do not follow.

Hint: I pull from a variety of primary and secondary sources. But feel free to list that single source.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

One of my Facebook friends is friends with someone we went to a singles ward together with. This guy has basically said he can't get vaccinated now cause he was politically in the anti-side and he can't admit we were right. It is our fault for making fun of him or insulting him. Which is funny cause the mutual friend is actually super conservative, he just didn't follow Trump. This anti-vaxx guy has gone just short of saying that if anything bad happens to him it is now our fault. This is a man who has non-ironically complained many times about liberal snowflakes. Though I guess in no true Scotsman fashion, it is impossible for an alpha male like himself to be a snowflake.

Just tell him to get it on the down low and not tell anyone.

- Doc