Mormons should be more worried about going to Hell than Atheists

[honorentheos]

…the reliability of the Bible as a periscope into the nature of the divine is highly relevant. As is the question of how reliable were his other claims regarding his authority and access to the divine.

On this point I think we are in agreement.

Regards,
MG

Good. This allows us to explore both questions, "How reliable is the Bible as a periscope into the nature of the divine?" and, "How reliable are Smiths claims regarding his authority and access to the divine?"

As noted already, there is zero scientific support for Nephites or the claims that the Book of Mormon is ancient while an abundance of evidence it is a product of the 19th century. Would you like to pick your favorite evidence that shows actual support for Smith's claims?

Likewise the period of widespread polygamy in the Bible out of Genesis is a topic that can be examined as to it's historicity and moral value. Care to pick one that you feel is on the firmest footing?

Or, as I suspect, do you just mean you believe Smith is reliable and the outdated literalist beliefs about the Bible Smith relied on to fabricate his authority claims are on solid ground so no further examination needed? To you, these are just competing opinions and you are choosing faith?

That would be sad, except I still get it. Worldview protection is a thing for we humans for a reason. But let's be honest about it, then. Your conservative WASPish moral view stretched across the framework of Mormonism is struggling to deal with Smith being immoral and that's about the sum total of the discussion.

[drumdude]

Also, taking the blame off Joseph and Brigham simply shifts it to Mormon God. Mormon God chose to allow the Restoration Movement to be intricately linked with polygamy. Mormon God chose that polygamy to include children as young as 14. Mormon God allowed the United States to force the LDS to abandon its core doctrine of celestial marriage (polygamy) in 1890. Mormon God chose the leaders who sustained the ban on blacks entering the temple.

In other words, Mormon God chose to make it look like Mormonism was a racist, pedophilic fraud. He could have chosen leaders who would have anticipated advances in human morality. Instead he chose men who fought against progress to be able to continue to discriminate and sexually abuse women and children. He chose leaders who only changed these doctrines when faced with extreme external social pressure.

[dastardly stem]

MG quoted and linked FAIRmormons:

Joseph's percentage of wives in their teen years was less than the series percentage of teen wives in Kirtland, Nauvoo, or the 1850 U.S. census, even among men his own age.

huh? So we figure the percent of Joseph's wives that were teenagers?

Teenage wives of joseph was 10 (about since no one seems to know exactly how many he married).

He married around 33 wives, as far as we know.

Percent of his wives that were teenagers: 30%

From Fair again:

If anything, Joseph married a greater percentage of older women, which suggests that motives other than sexual attraction drove these matches

I count 6 over 45. What they mean by "older women" might mean something silly here, since Joseph was in his later 30s and anyone within a couple of years of him might be older than him, but not really older women as one might get from reading this Fair line, per se.

So, nope. Not "if anything" at all. He married younger girls at a higher rate than women who might be 8 plus years older than him. And yes, older women might have been attractive to him too. That can't possibly suggest "that motives other than sexual attraction drove these matches". That is silly nonsense.

Please, MG. You aren't doing yourself any favors by going to Fair.

[MG 2.0]

On this point I think we are in agreement.

Regards,
MG

Good. This allows us to explore both questions, "How reliable is the Bible as a periscope into the nature of the divine?" and, "How reliable are Smiths claims regarding his authority and access to the divine?"

As noted already, there is zero scientific support for Nephites or the claims that the Book of Mormon is ancient while an abundance of evidence it is a product of the 19th century. Would you like to pick your favorite evidence that shows actual support for Smith's claims?

Likewise the period of widespread polygamy in the Bible out of Genesis is a topic that can be examined as to it's historicity and moral value. Care to pick one that you feel is on the firmest footing?

Or, as I suspect, do you just mean you believe Smith is reliable and the outdated literalist beliefs about the Bible Smith relied on to fabricate his authority claims are on solid ground so no further examination needed? To you, these are just competing opinions and you are choosing faith?

That would be sad, except I still get it. Worldview protection is a thing for we humans for a reason. But let's be honest about it, then. Your conservative WASPish moral view stretched across the framework of Mormonism is struggling to deal with Smith being immoral and that's about the sum total of the discussion.

I do choose to believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. I do think that the Bible recognizes the need for authority to act in God’s name. I do think Joseph Smith gained access to that power and shared the keys of that power and priesthood with others.

This being the case, where would you suggest we go from here?

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

Also, taking the blame off Joseph and Brigham simply shifts it to Mormon God. Mormon God chose to allow the Restoration Movement to be intricately linked with polygamy. Mormon God chose that polygamy to include children as young as 14. Mormon God allowed the United States to force the LDS to abandon its core doctrine of celestial marriage (polygamy) in 1890. Mormon God chose the leaders who sustained the ban on blacks entering the temple.

In other words, Mormon God chose to make it look like Mormonism was a racist, pedophilic fraud. He could have chosen leaders who would have anticipated advances in human morality. Instead he chose men who fought against progress to be able to continue to discriminate and sexually abuse women and children. He chose leaders who only changed these doctrines when faced with extreme external social pressure.

Mormon God actually is racist, misogynist, and sexually perverse. If one accepts the stories as true, one is engaging in the anthropomorphizing of the universe to excuse all three.

Here is the thing about MG. He believes he is fighting against wickedness when he visits this board. Anyone who rejected belief in the creator God he asserts as fact is corrupted. Nothing anyone says along these lines gets through to him because he is fighting a crusade and such arguments are unto him as devil's reciting scripture. He doesn't understand morality as a concept detached from his conservative Mormon-based Anglo-centric Fox News fed worldview. You are the enemy of God, so even if it looks like you are on the side of morality and Smith is the one who was immoral this simply can't be. So the truth must be that we lack understanding in that particular subject. But on the subject of there being said creator God and the corruption of those who have rejected this belief? Absolute certitude.

[honorentheos]

This being the case, where would you suggest we go from here?

Regards,
MG

Let's start at the beginning and talk Adam, then. What do you believe in regard to the literal Garden of Eden and creation story in Genesis?

[doubtingthomas]

Get back to me when you find out how old she was when she had her first child.

Regards,
MG

Clarissa Caroline Decker had a miscarriage at age 17. Just because she got pregnant at age 17 doesn't mean Brigham Young didn't have sex with her at age 15. Remember in the 19th century the average age of the onset of puberty was 16.6 years, so it means Clarissa Decker probably couldn't get pregnant at age 15.

To answer your question Clarissa was 20 when she had her first child.

[drumdude]

Anyone who rejected belief in the creator God he asserts as fact is corrupted.

And then they play the shell game with Mormon God and Creator God. They are not the same God. You have to always remember any time a Mormon apologist uses a traditional Christian apologetic argument, that they still have a giant mountain to climb to integrate Mormonism into that argument.

[MG 2.0]

He could have chosen leaders who would have anticipated advances in human morality.

Is monogamy an advance in human morality or a fairly recent innovation?

The notion that monogamy is not "natural" for humans has been controversial because some fear it may provide a biological justification for promiscuity. "But it's a fallacious idea that we can infer from what is the case something about how we ought to act," says Erik Parens, senior research scholar at The Hastings Center bioethics think tank based in Garrison, N.Y. "I don't see why we should accept the premise that we can read off of how our forebears acted…[the way]…we ought to act now."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -monogamy/

…no Biblical passages explicitly prohibit plural marriage.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -is-normal

Monogamy hasn’t always been the standard. The fact that you see it as an advance is one way of looking at it. And on the whole, you may be right. But there are times and places/reasons where monogamy hasn’t been the standard and having multiple wives/partners hasn’t been condemned or though of as aberrant behavior.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Clarissa Caroline Decker had a miscarriage at age 17. Just because she got pregnant at age 17 doesn't mean Brigham Young didn't have sex with her at age 15. Remember in the 19th century the average age of the onset of puberty was 16.6 years, so it means Clarissa Decker probably couldn't get pregnant at age 15.

To answer your question Clarissa was 20 when she had her first child.

Ah, thank you.

Regards,
MG