Progressives hating on America thread

[Alf'Omega]

Progressives hate America? Were they the ones who stormed Washington in an attempt to overthrow democracy?

[Gunnar]

Are progressives the ones promoting the gargantuan lie that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and working feverishly to undermine voter confidence in all future elections from now on by interminable, bogus election audits and making it harder for minorities and lower class people to vote?

Hating the inequities, crumbling infrastructure and the glaringly obvious and worsening corruption in American politics does not equate to hating America!

[ceeboo]

Good morning, Res!

Mike, if you want to chat about stuff, you won't find me in this type of thread (regardless of whether its left or right). We all know that we can find extreme behaviors at the left and the right and can post pictures and videos, sometimes out of context, that show it. It's outrage porn, and represents part of the problem that is tearing America apart.

If you're willing, I would like to hear your take on this. Maybe elaborate some? When you say that "it represents part of the problem that is tearing America apart" - What do you mean? If this is a "part", what are other things at play, in your opinion?

Full transparency: I am asking you, specifically, because I think you are one of the very few board members here (that post a lot about politics in this forum) that have some balance/fairness (wide view) when it comes to the political divide in this country.

Thanks!

[canpakes]

Good morning, Res!

Mike, if you want to chat about stuff, you won't find me in this type of thread (regardless of whether its left or right). We all know that we can find extreme behaviors at the left and the right and can post pictures and videos, sometimes out of context, that show it. It's outrage porn, and represents part of the problem that is tearing America apart.

If you're willing, I would like to hear your take on this. Maybe elaborate some? When you say that "it represents part of the problem that is tearing America apart" - What do you mean? If this is a "part", what are other things at play, in your opinion?

Full transparency: I am asking you, specifically, because I think you are one of the very few board members here (that post a lot about politics in this forum) that have some balance/fairness (wide view) when it comes to the political divide in this country.

Thanks!

A good example of this problem might be the ongoing campaign by the ex-President and his rallies, wherein he repeatedly asserts that he didn’t lose the election, amongst his usual barrage of negative and disparaging comments. Or the shenanigans of his acolytes like Mike Lindell, who are now calling for audits of the audits that didn’t promote their false narrative of supposed election fraud. These are two folks who will stoke the fires of discontent with any claim that they see as beneficial to their own pocketbook, regardless of how dangerous their actions might be to the country at large.

I suspect that you may not agree with that assessment, but they’re a starting point, if you don’t mind beginning with two of the most glaring and visible examples.

[Res Ipsa]

Good morning, Res!

Mike, if you want to chat about stuff, you won't find me in this type of thread (regardless of whether its left or right). We all know that we can find extreme behaviors at the left and the right and can post pictures and videos, sometimes out of context, that show it. It's outrage porn, and represents part of the problem that is tearing America apart.

If you're willing, I would like to hear your take on this. Maybe elaborate some? When you say that "it represents part of the problem that is tearing America apart" - What do you mean? If this is a "part", what are other things at play, in your opinion?

Full transparency: I am asking you, specifically, because I think you are one of the very few board members here (that post a lot about politics in this forum) that have some balance/fairness (wide view) when it comes to the political divide in this country.

Thanks!

Hi Ceebs,

I’m happy to prattle on with a bit more detail, for what it’s worth. With the development of smart phones that include the ability to record lots of video, we all have the ability to record each other’s worst behavior and make the video public. Anyone who stops and thinks for a few minutes should understand that each individual exhibits a wide range of behavior over their lifetimes. But, if they have the bad luck of appearing in a viral video, it will almost certainly will be when they are behaving at their worst. It’s the extreme behavior that grabs the attention of social media consumers, but none of us would want judgements about us to be based on the worst minute or two out of an entire lifetime.

The problem becomes worse when we talk about groups. The most extreme behavior of anyone who belongs to any group will be far more extreme than the typical behavior of people in that group.

What AM’s threads often do is show some YouTube clip of a member of a group that shows extreme speech or behavior but presents it as though it is typical behavior for members of that group. That, of course, is a fairly extreme form of stereotyping that 30 seconds of thought should lead us to conclude that it’s a silly claim. But trawling through Youtube reveals a huge number of these kinds of posts. Why?

Because they work. In the US, political groups do this to each other to create cartoon versions of “conservative,” “liberal,” or AM’s current favorite target “progressives.” People on both sides confuse the cartoon version of their political opponents with reality. The effect is to dehumanize the opposition, dismiss their ideas and proposals without ever giving them serious thought, and, dangerously, portray them as an existential threat to “America” or “our way of life” or “freedom” or “democracy” or other basic value.

Why dangerous? Because the rational response to a truly existential threat is to declare all out war on it. And the end of that is events like the Rawandan genocide — people hacking to death their neighbors and family with machetes. It’s interesting to examine the role of the media in the Rawandan genocide — mostly radio in that case.

I first ran into this years ago in a discussion with my sisters husband. He was a good guy and a great father and husband, in my opinion. He was LDS and conservatives, but more importantly, he was family. I had a couple of adventures with him that I treasure.

One time we were talking a little politics. He’d gone to Chile on his mission, and he started talking about what a great guy Pinochet was. It kind of sounded like the LDS Church had snuggled up to Pinochet while he was in power. I expressed some criticism of Pinochet, and that led to him saying something like “I just don’t understand how you can be a liberal.” I asked him what he thought being a liberal meant. The answer was a distorted caricature of modern American liberalism. It was truly a weird experience.

Where did it come from? It came from other conservatives. Rush Limbaugh was popular or becoming popular around that time, and his whole schtick was using extreme examples as representative of “liberals.” He also was also descended from the Cleon Skousen wing of the LDS Church, so maybe that’s where the caricature came from. But one thing was certain: it didn’t come from your average liberal guy like me. We had a good conversation about the actual ranges of opinions in liberal American, and then went on to other topics.

He didn’t become a liberal and I didn’t become a conservative. But we didn’t walk away from that conversation as enemies or thinking that the other represented an existential threat. I wonder what that conversation would look like today. He died young of a heart attack, so I’ll never know.

Think I could have that conversation with Atlantic Mike today?

[Moksha]

What I hate is the continual regressives WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!

[ceeboo]

Hi Ceebs,

Good morning, RI

I’m happy to prattle on with a bit more detail, for what it’s worth. With the development of smart phones that include the ability to record lots of video, we all have the ability to record each other’s worst behavior and make the video public. Anyone who stops and thinks for a few minutes should understand that each individual exhibits a wide range of behavior over their lifetimes. But, if they have the bad luck of appearing in a viral video, it will almost certainly will be when they are behaving at their worst. It’s the extreme behavior that grabs the attention of social media consumers, but none of us would want judgements about us to be based on the worst minute or two out of an entire lifetime.

Interesting - Thanks for prattling.

The problem becomes worse when we talk about groups. The most extreme behavior of anyone who belongs to any group will be far more extreme than the typical behavior of people in that group.

Yeah, I agree with this.

What AM’s threads often do is show some YouTube clip of a member of a group that shows extreme speech or behavior but presents it as though it is typical behavior for members of that group. That, of course, is a fairly extreme form of stereotyping that 30 seconds of thought should lead us to conclude that it’s a silly claim. But trawling through Youtube reveals a huge number of these kinds of posts. Why?

Because they work. In the US, political groups do this to each other to create cartoon versions of “conservative,” “liberal,” or AM’s current favorite target “progressives.” People on both sides confuse the cartoon version of their political opponents with reality. The effect is to dehumanize the opposition, dismiss their ideas and proposals without ever giving them serious thought, and, dangerously, portray them as an existential threat to “America” or “our way of life” or “freedom” or “democracy” or other basic value.

Bold mine

Spot on, in my opinion. The bolded part is exactly how I see it, for what it's worth.

Why dangerous? Because the rational response to a truly existential threat is to declare all out war on it. And the end of that is events like the Rawandan genocide — people hacking to death their neighbors and family with machetes. It’s interesting to examine the role of the media in the Rawandan genocide — mostly radio in that case.

While I do know about the horrifying events that took place during the Rwandan genocide, I don't know about the media/radio impact so I simply can't comment on this.

I first ran into this years ago in a discussion with my sisters husband. He was a good guy and a great father and husband, in my opinion. He was LDS and conservatives, but more importantly, he was family. I had a couple of adventures with him that I treasure.

One time we were talking a little politics. He’d gone to Chile on his mission, and he started talking about what a great guy Pinochet was. It kind of sounded like the LDS Church had snuggled up to Pinochet while he was in power. I expressed some criticism of Pinochet, and that led to him saying something like “I just don’t understand how you can be a liberal.” I asked him what he thought being a liberal meant. The answer was a distorted caricature of modern American liberalism. It was truly a weird experience.

Where did it come from? It came from other conservatives. Rush Limbaugh was popular or becoming popular around that time, and his whole schtick was using extreme examples as representative of “liberals.” He also was also descended from the Cleon Skousen wing of the LDS Church, so maybe that’s where the caricature came from. But one thing was certain: it didn’t come from your average liberal guy like me. We had a good conversation about the actual ranges of opinions in liberal American, and then went on to other topics.

He didn’t become a liberal and I didn’t become a conservative. But we didn’t walk away from that conversation as enemies or thinking that the other represented an existential threat. I wonder what that conversation would look like today. He died young of a heart attack, so I’ll never know.

Being able to walk away from your sister's husband, after sharing opposing ideas/thoughts, without being enemies and/or believing that either of you were an existential threat, is something that is becoming more and more rare in the world we live in today - Unfortunately, in my opinion.

Think I could have that conversation with Atlantic Mike today?

I do. Probably not on this board - in this environment, but I do think you could have that conversation with AM at Starbucks (or any other neutral location where such conversations/engagements can actually take place.)

Anyway, I appreciate you answering my question. For what it worth, your post displayed your balance, rational thinking, and even-handed approach that you provide in most topics/discussions (I expected this from you - that's why I asked you.) In my opinion, this board is lucky to have you here.

Thanks!

[Atlanticmike]

Progressive dislike Trump so much, they hate America.
https://youtu.be/M0tM1lMzLQw