RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[Philo Sofee]

Do people here think that Consig has a duty to provide a landing point for those who leave? Does he need to start an alternative religion or organization?

Joseph Smith himself said "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." That was how I understood RFM's point. If adults have to be guided step by step all through their lives, that proves brainwashing man. No one is under obligation to do that. Kwaku completely missed the point of RFM's theme. He has nothing to do with getting people to leave the church, if they do so, that is their choice. No one is obligated to then turn around and guide them to a new belief. RFM is also teaching correct principles and letting them govern themselves. RFM is teaching them HOW to think, not WHAT to think. Is it worse helping them see they are being deceived and giving money to a cult, or in informing them with actual knowledge and evidence and letting them make their own decisions? McCraney's loaded question is from the Evangelical perspective which Mormons also hold, and RFM's response was absolutely correctly perfect.

[Philo Sofee]

Saturdaysvoyeur
I don't think it was delusion nor conspiracy theory (though I agree they engage in both).

I think they were intentionally trying to send a very definite message that they see themselves as potential victims of an ex-Mormon mob.

Which makes the point they are delusional...
On the flipside, when investigators are taken to church, are they not ganged up by the Mormon mob in church? Doesn't the brainwashing go into over drive with all the phony friendliness in order to convince and convert?

[Moksha]

Or, on the other hand, does anybody want to address the ingrained and sacred nature, apparently, of plural marriage discussed in the Old Testament?

Kwaku could have been touching on the sacred nature of concubines when he mentioned Rosebud.

[Marcus]

I thought maybe the comments about bullet proof vests were exaggerated. But no.


(from reddit)

[Bond]

Great to see you, Bond! Yeah, that was a surprise. I thought it would be a lot more about insults than it was. The MMs seem to have realized that testemotionalism was the way to go with the LDS crowd, and they were probably right.

Hello good Reverend.

Thoughts of last night. Kwaku has a million dollar smile and personality and the soul of a sociopath. He'll be great on Fox News someday where his ability to smile while doxxing and slandering someone because he has no argument will earn him millions. Cardon's a cultural warrior who seems really worried about our declining birth rate which I'm sure means he's pro immigration. I'm sure he's as a charitable to the emotional distress of exmormons as he asks them to be about the very real problems in LDS history which he knows everything about. His experience is the experience of every LDS teenager who read the entire Church history and was cool with it. The other guy didn't even leave an impression.

[Canadiandude2]

I take it you have no comment at all on the merits.

Faith isn't about facts! Never has been. I've been saying that here and on md&d. All these years and you still haven't figured out what religion is for?

Your prophets and other leaders make claims about existence, many of which are falsifiable.

You are a troll. The entire board can see it.

[Kishkumen]

Hello good Reverend.

Thoughts of last night. Kwaku has a million dollar smile and personality and the soul of a sociopath. He'll be great on Fox News someday where his ability to smile while doxxing and slandering someone because he has no argument will earn him millions. Cardon's a cultural warrior who seems really worried about our declining birth rate which I'm sure means he's pro immigration. I'm sure he's as a charitable to the emotional distress of exmormons as he asks them to be about the very real problems in LDS history which he knows everything about. His experience is the experience of every LDS teenager who read the entire Church history and was cool with it. The other guy didn't even leave an impression.

Sounds pretty accurate to me, there, Bond. My distaste for debates was reaffirmed. I don't think they accomplish much more than entertainment of a kind. The kind of people who would be convinced by the shenanigans of the Midnight Morons crew are happily ensconced in the LDS Church. That may not say anything flattering about any of them, but it seems fitting anyway.

[Kishkumen]

It was the multipart multilong question that Cardon derided as incomprehensible.

Kwaku responded with his own personal experience as his mother was a polygamist and he said -- you don't know what its like until you live it. Lame. Cardon took up the rest of the time with utterly stupid platitudes. Consig's response was forgettable and meaningless.

I'll have to go back and watch it . . . or maybe not. So I wonder whether Quackoo's mother was a polygamist before joining the LDS Church. Did she have to leave the relationship to get baptized? Was she no longer a polygamist when she was baptized? If the latter was true, what does that say about her experience of polygamy? If her polygamy was not of the Mormon variety, what does it really have to do with Mormon polygamy, which has its own unique characteristics?

I ask these serious factual questions knowing that Quackoo is not a serious person who deals with things seriously and genuinely.

Does anybody know, for instance, that Pres. Joseph F. Smith admitted before a congressional committee that he ignored the manifesto and continued to have children? He didn't rebut the point raised by Senate lawyers that he had married after the manifesto off Catalina?

I did not know that. I am weak on Mormon history after Nauvoo.

Or, on the other hand, does anybody want to address the ingrained and sacred nature, apparently, of plural marriage discussed in the Old Testament?

Of course, again, Old Testament polygyny is not Mormon polygamy, and so the latter does not appear to be a "restoration" of the former but its own thing.

[Kishkumen]

Haha. Basically you're upset because Kwaku defended Mormonism righteously and faithfully and you were hoping the outcome was going to be different than what it was. I was wrong a couple weeks ago when I said RFM would come out of this debate looking like he was being picked on by the Midnight Mormons. Infact, just the opposite!! The audience acted like a bunch of spoiled whiny brats that wanted RFM to tear up his three younger opponents. The Midnight Mormons came out of this debate looking great!! RFM came out of this debate looking like an old man that's upset because he spent the first half of life in Mormonism and now he can't figure out a way to move on. Tell ya the truth, Mormonism was the true winner of this debate. Why the hell would I want to leave Mormonism to just become a middle aged man that looks forward to sitting in an audience that cheers for someone that tears down someones religion? What kinda life is that? The audience was the big loser. A bunch of old white men laughing at three young men defending their faith. You guys need to get a life! Learn how to move on.

Why would anyone want to stay LDS to sit in an audience listening to Quackoo tear down the constitutional right to an attorney? Why would anyone want to stay LDS to sit in an audience listening to three fools who know less about their religion than the person they are debating? Why would anyone want to stay LDS when LDS defenders have to engage in character assassination and stupid stunts (like wearing bullet-proof vests) because they are so poorly equipped to defend their faith? Why would anyone want to stay LDS upon realizing the mentality of those who think that the Midnight Morons did a great job? I took part in the chat during the livestream, and the LDS defenders therein were positively embarrassing to themselves and the LDS Church.

I can see wanting to stay LDS for various reasons, but none of them have anything to do with the debate. I can see wanting to leave the LDS Church, and none of them really have much to do with the debate. I thought RFM did fine, but I doubt his appearance will persuade anyone of anything, and I think he had a couple of off moments. The Midnight Morons entered looking like morons and left looking like morons, although Cardon did somewhat better in not looking like a complete lunatic than I thought he would. I saw some real genuine humanity, in fact, from Brad and Cardon, which was somewhat of a relief, and did more to reflect well on the LDS Church than any of their lame arguments, whereas Quackoo is just really awful. An obviously shallow charm that does a poor job of hiding his lack of integrity and poor character.

[honorentheos]

Tactically, the debate was a wash.

It's interesting to me that MM appear to have a narrative strategy that they successfully followed.

The bullet proof vests are part of this narrative strategy that, while gimmicky and even outrageous, land for those who were the intended audience of said narrative strategy.

The need is to articulate the narrative so one understands when one is playing into it and can, if appropriate, counter it.

That being: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a welcoming shelter in the rising storm brought on by the turmoil of our times and the nihilistic influence of secular atheism and extreme individualism. Those who would use the complicated history of the church to separate you from the safety and joy found in the church do not have your interests at heart but are instead bitterly attacking the church out of negative motivations and not out of concern for the people involved. They are doing this, not because they care, but because they hate. This hate is manifest in virtual attacks against the church and literal attacks against church property and it's members. The storm is increasing and those who follow the Pied Piper song of the critics will find themselves abandoned among hate-filled and hurting nihilistic individuals with no community bonds to share besides when they flock together to shower spite and hate at the church.

It's goal isn't to win converts though it could appeal to some in the conservative community in western democracies who view the progress of pluralism as an assault on the order they feel the past represents. It's main goal is to discourage those who are within the fold already, warning them the calls they hear are really those of wolves who will rend and tear them, leaving them to bleed out in misery if you are deceived into trusting them.

ETA: It was RFMs failure to recognize this and counter the strategy rather than play into it that was most disappointing to me. Getting caught up in reacting tactically is how one loses a game after capturing a queen.