Honorentheos, I found myself a bit puzzled by your question. I am unsure if I am catching what you are asking. Some of it may be just difficult to answer. I think there may be miracles but I do not think they are demonstrable. If I think of myself I know of a few events which strongly suggest miracle but there is no way to be sure . The moment is gone and cannot be tested.honorentheos wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:15 amI'm stuck on the idea that god works through evolution, recognizing the results of evolution do not have the characteristics of craftsmanship in design. There is extreme elegance in creation, evolved solutions that are astounding in their simplicity and organizational properties. Bioengineering exists to capture some of that elegance for good reason. But behind it all is evidence that each emergent trait of creation derives from the conditions that immediately preceded it and not from a master plan for creation that includes such ideas as divine intervention, atonement that affects the fate of an individual, or otherwise a being who intercedes in meaningful ways.huckelberry wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:50 pmI do not separate the more traditional view from naturalism. Naturalism would be understood as a result of and expression of God. In that view I find evolution to be a reflection of God.
My comment about communication from God was meant to suggest both a range of possibilities and my strong belief that people have overestimated communication and downplayed the role of our own thought and growth in experience. I believe God values that growth more than pure doctrine (which I do not think people have) In that view I see God as caring about all peoples not just those with correct doctrine or ritual.
I guess fitting my position as within a dialogue my view of Gods communication is middling. I believe God communicates just not lots of stuff
So here is a different way to ask the questions I skimmed over: In your opinion, how would a universe that emergently arose from prior conditions as described with naturalism differ from the universe we observe ourselves to be part of and have evolved within?
Of course the traits in evolution arise from previous conditions. That is much the beauty of it. It also operates in a wide interconnected system ,environment,of many kinds of creatures, which is much the beauty of it. I respect beauty in this context more than I respect fundamentalist dogmatic simplicity.
Atonement is about health and survivability of community. It is part of the long line of community development in the animal kingdoms which with expansion in humans created new problems to deal with.
Yes atonement can be understood as a start to community in an eternal realm with God. That of course would be an extension of the principals of life and community we start here.(firmly a part of our evolutionary development)