Mormons and Critical Race Theory

[Atlanticmike]

That's crazy talk. You gotta look backwards to find your talking points. critical race theory doesn't ""reverse"' anything! Actually, it does just the opposite. critical race theory is a group of white people using past events, events we can do absolutely nothing about because they're in the past, and yoking POC around the neck with the past because it's easier to CONTROL a person if they FEEL like they're helpless without a SAVIOR. Again, critical race theory makes POC out to be victims and even worse, it makes white people out to be the ""Savior"".

White people that support critical race theory say, we're going to implement these policies so you can "Progress" and become more like us! White people thst support critical race theory say, we're going to implement these policies because you're unable to ",progress" on your own. White people that support critical race theory say, we're going to implement these policies because you, black people, need us to change so you, so you black people, can become better people. What I just explained is a SAVIOR mentality. People that feel the need to ""save"' others, often attach themselves to groups of people that they feel would benefit from their knowledge, setting up the group as the Savior's pet project. Basically, what I'm saying is, critical race theory has nothing to do with the ""colored"' people you're so desperately trying to ""save"". It has everything to do with satisfying your internal need to be a Savior. Sorry sir, but critical race theory sets up a toxic codendence that benefits no one.

Mormons got this one correct kishkumen!


Here's an American passionately explaining how some white people's savior complex can go to hell.
https://youtu.be/m66rcHzWaPU

AM, you can’t think your way out of an open box. Or read. I am not supporting critical race theory or following “talking points.” I’ll leave that to people like you. I am following that part of the repentance process known as restitution. You are right, the Mormons do get things right. Thank you. I’ll take that compliment.

Are you saying you want to pay black people money because of the horrible sins of our forefathers? If so, do they have to prove they are descendants of American slaves?? I have a friend that just happens to be black and was born in Africa 42 years ago, no American slave history in his family tree, he became a citizen of the USA a while back, does he receive restitution? What about an American citizen that has a white mother and a black dad? Do they get full restitution like someone with two black parents. If the answer is yes, then what about someone who who is a quarter black? What about Rachel dolezal? She's white but lives as a black person. Does she get restitution? What if she takes a DNA test and finds out she had a great great grandmother that was black. Does Rachel qualify for restitution? What about the descendants of the white Britons enslaved here in America? Do their descendants get restitution even though they're white? How about descendants of indentured servants, do they get restitution? So many questions!

[Kishkumen]

Are you saying you want to pay black people money because of the horrible sins of our forefathers? If so, do they have to prove they are descendants of American slaves?? I have a friend that just happens to be black and was born in Africa 42 years ago, no American slave history in his family tree, he became a citizen of the USA a while back, does he receive restitution? What about an American citizen that has a white mother and a black dad? Do they get full restitution like someone with two black parents. If the answer is yes, then what about someone who who is a quarter black? What about Rachel dolezal? She's white but lives as a black person. Does she get restitution? What if she takes a DNA test and finds out she had a great great grandmother that was black. Does Rachel qualify for restitution? What about the descendants of the white Britons enslaved here in America? Do their descendants get restitution even though they're white? How about descendants of indentured servants, do they get restitution? So many questions!

Slavery is a sin. Restitution of some form is in order. There are undoubtedly mechanisms to do it in a way that makes sense and is feasible. Your eagerness to let the demand for a perfect solution be the enemy of finding a reasonable solution is just your fall back position after losing the argument. Doing nothing is definitely no solution, but it is clearly what you prefer over anything else.

[Atlanticmike]

Are you saying you want to pay black people money because of the horrible sins of our forefathers? If so, do they have to prove they are descendants of American slaves?? I have a friend that just happens to be black and was born in Africa 42 years ago, no American slave history in his family tree, he became a citizen of the USA a while back, does he receive restitution? What about an American citizen that has a white mother and a black dad? Do they get full restitution like someone with two black parents. If the answer is yes, then what about someone who who is a quarter black? What about Rachel dolezal? She's white but lives as a black person. Does she get restitution? What if she takes a DNA test and finds out she had a great great grandmother that was black. Does Rachel qualify for restitution? What about the descendants of the white Britons enslaved here in America? Do their descendants get restitution even though they're white? How about descendants of indentured servants, do they get restitution? So many questions!

Slavery is a sin. Restitution of some form is in order. There are undoubtedly mechanisms to do it in a way that makes sense and is feasible. Your eagerness to let the demand for a perfect solution be the enemy of finding a reasonable solution is just your fall back position after losing the argument. Doing nothing is definitely no solution, but it is clearly what you prefer over anything else.

You didn't answer any of my questions. If you don't mind, answer this please. There were over 300,000 white Britons enslaved here in America and a large portion of them picked cotton beside the African slaves. Do their descendants get reparations?

There's a great book called WHITE CARGO the Forgotten history of Britain's white slaves in America.

[Chap]

Your eagerness to let the demand for a perfect solution be the enemy of finding a reasonable solution is just your fall back position after losing the argument. Doing nothing is definitely no solution, but it is clearly what you prefer over anything else.

Precisely.

There are possible exceptions to every attempt to define a group deserving of compensation for clear injustice done - and the descendants of slaves are such a group. You can rely on the AM's of this world to make the most of that. But as you say, there are ways round that, and it is in any case better that a few should receive benefits that they do not deserve rather than that great numbers of deserving people should be given nothing - which of course would not worry the AMs at all ...

[Atlanticmike]

Your eagerness to let the demand for a perfect solution be the enemy of finding a reasonable solution is just your fall back position after losing the argument. Doing nothing is definitely no solution, but it is clearly what you prefer over anything else.

Precisely.

There are possible exceptions to every attempt to define a group deserving of compensation for clear injustice done - and the descendants of slaves are such a group. You can rely on the AM's of this world to make the most of that. But as you say, there are ways round that, and it is in any case better that a few should receive benefits that they do not deserve rather than that great numbers of deserving people should be given nothing - which of course would not worry the AMs at all ...

There again, to me, it seems like you and kishkumen SEE black people as not whole until they receive their "fair share". You see, when I read what you just wrote, saying black Americans "deserve" reparations, that sounds racist to me.

https://youtu.be/3JGmKHrWKMQ
White liberals don't even realize how racist there views about black Americans are. Why? Because they don't actually see Black Americans as equals. This video is just a small glimpse into the racist views most liberals have about Black Americans.

[Physics Guy]

Indentured servants voluntary sold their labor for a fixed period of a few years. The people themselves did not become anyone else’s property. They had to work without pay for the stipulated term, in return for the advance price that they had received—typically used for passage to the New World from Europe.

Indentured servants’ contracts could be transferred to third parties without their consent, forcing them to do other work than they had anticipated, but apart from their work commitment they were free. They could for example marry and have children, and their children did not become indentured servants by birth but were ordinary free citizens.

Indentured servitude was a barbaric system by modern standards and it was subject to abuses even by the standards of its times. People were often induced to indenture themselves by misrepresentation of what their lives would be like.

It was far from slavery.

[MG 2.0]

Precisely.

There are possible exceptions to every attempt to define a group deserving of compensation for clear injustice done - and the descendants of slaves are such a group. You can rely on the AM's of this world to make the most of that. But as you say, there are ways round that, and it is in any case better that a few should receive benefits that they do not deserve rather than that great numbers of deserving people should be given nothing - which of course would not worry the AMs at all ...

There again, to me, it seems like you and kishkumen SEE black people as not whole until they receive their "fair share". You see, when I read what you just wrote, saying black Americans "deserve" reparations, that sounds racist to me.

https://youtu.be/3JGmKHrWKMQ
White liberals don't even realize how racist there views about black Americans are. Why? Because they don't actually see Black Americans as equals. This video is just a small glimpse into the racist views most liberals have about Black Americans.

There is nothing in woke-ism literature about repenting from individual sins unless you are white, conservative, a capitalist, and heterosexual. Woke-ism is progressive, a movement of the political and theological left.

Instead, the investigator finds assertions about social injustice that are based upon nothing more than unproven assumptions and appeals to selective data, which are not to be questioned.

If the assumptions are questioned, the critic is dismissed as not being “woke.” The “woke-er” argues in a circle, themselves, being the standard of interpretation. With this spectacular intellectual decline, the stage is set for a massive rise in new cultic groups forming on nothing more than following a slick lip artist leader who can arouse the emotions.

https://thereligionthatstartedinahat.or ... act-sheet/

And there you have it.

Ya’ gotta love my source, right?

Regards,
MG

[master_dc]

Drumdude,

Your example of being a Harvard admissions officer (or maybe that is true?) is a fascinating area to step into when it comes to these types of discussions.

My day job is dealing with large amounts of data and using it to tell stories, do deep analysis, etc. A few years ago I was supporting an organization that is responsible for tracking human resources metrics across dozens of sub-organizations, we are talking close 100,000ish people. They have multiple initiatives to increase representation across all areas (hiring, promotions, management, etc.). What the data says is that they are doing better but missing their marks. What my research discovered was that the processes in place did not cultivate the changes they are trying to achieve. For example, if you consistently hire from engineering programs, ivy leagues, etc., it is hard to adequately diversify your new hires to hit the changes you hope to see. Even for internal promotions, there were instances that if every minority ion a group got promoted, the numbers would have still been a miss. My job was to explain these situations to the leadership and provide long term solutions that can be employed to move the needle in the intended direction.

These types of efforts are hard for everyone. Most people don't want to get the interview just so they could fill the quota. White males often feel looked over for positions they believe they deserve and did not get because of a perceived EEOD hire. But the truth is, maybe the traditional metrics that have "always been used" are bias? maybe they data we have used is broken and does not treat some groups fairly. If Harvard only focuses on bringing in students that fit the characteristics of successful students based on the last 20 years - 50 years of data, they might miss entire groups that would provide positive impact to education on campus.

I am more impressed with kids that achieve a 3.5 gpa from an inner city school than a suburb kid who got a 4.1. Diversity of thought, experience, background, daily life, these are all valuable to any org. Companies, schools, etc, need to look past the traditional signs of success and look at individuals and what they can bring. I deal with concerns about A.I. introducing bias to a given problem, but what I have found is that if the an A.I. solution is biased, it is because the data is biased, and it is a good thing to expose and help organizations fix these problems moving forward.

Teaching kids that life isn't fair goes both ways. Stephen E. Robinson has a quote, something like "God knows who is standing in a ditch and who is standing on a chair, that is why he measures growth not height." I like that idea but think we all need to apply it in our everyday lives.

[Res Ipsa]

There again, to me, it seems like you and kishkumen SEE black people as not whole until they receive their "fair share". You see, when I read what you just wrote, saying black Americans "deserve" reparations, that sounds racist to me.

https://youtu.be/3JGmKHrWKMQ
White liberals don't even realize how racist there views about black Americans are. Why? Because they don't actually see Black Americans as equals. This video is just a small glimpse into the racist views most liberals have about Black Americans.

There is nothing in woke-ism literature about repenting from individual sins unless you are white, conservative, a capitalist, and heterosexual. Woke-ism is progressive, a movement of the political and theological left.

Instead, the investigator finds assertions about social injustice that are based upon nothing more than unproven assumptions and appeals to selective data, which are not to be questioned.

If the assumptions are questioned, the critic is dismissed as not being “woke.” The “woke-er” argues in a circle, themselves, being the standard of interpretation. With this spectacular intellectual decline, the stage is set for a massive rise in new cultic groups forming on nothing more than following a slick lip artist leader who can arouse the emotions.

https://thereligionthatstartedinahat.or ... act-sheet/

And there you have it.

Ya’ gotta love my source, right?

Regards,
MG

I don't find "repentance" as a personally helpful concept in this area. Maybe that's my LDS upbringing -- I was taught to repent of my own sins and not the sins of others.

One thing I find fascinating is the rise of the Orwellian right and it's deployment of Newspeak. In Right-wing Newspeak, "racism" is completely divorced from its original meaning of "treating someone less favorably on the basis of race" to "anyone who dares talk about race." It turns the majority white folks into poor victims of "racism," which, in reality, is nothing more than people talking about racism.

Look at how Atlanticmike twists himself into pretzels to cast a virtue (e.g., the Good Samaritan) into a vice. Under his version of the scriptures, Jesus would have castigated the Good Samaritan for treating the person he helped as less than a victim. It's pernicious and racist as hell.

Part of the newspeak is use of "colorblind" or "I don't see color" by white folks. It goes hand in hand with pretending that racism has simply disappeared from the U.S. But, of course, it's complete nonsense. If you can't see color, you have no idea whether racism exists or not. Here's the Newspeak version of "I don't see color" applied in 1800. Q: "Why do you enslave black people?" A: "What black people. I don't see color. You're just a racist."

To have an actual colorblind society means having a society that doesn't systematically disadvantage certain racial groups. There is no escaping the fact that racism was explicitly woven into the fabric of American society for hundreds of years. You can't understand the institution of slavery in the U.S. without understanding racism. You can't understand the de facto reinstitution of slavery after reconstruction without understanding racism. You can't understand Jim Crow and lynching without understanding racism. You can't understand the Great Migration without understanding racism.

So the question we should be asking ourselves is whether racism is still woven into our tapestry. If it isn't, then "moving toward colorblindness" is simply denial of an existing race problem.

There are are two good examples of how racism in the more recent past has had generational effects on black folks. The first is education. even after Brown v. Board of Education was decided, lots of white folks fought tooth and nail to keep their children from having to go to school with black children. At least a generation of black children received inferior education because of those efforts at the very time that education presented a powerful opportunity for upward economic mobility.

The other is redlining. After WW II, the U.S. Government promoted economic growth in the middle class through home ownership in the form of VA and FHA loans. But redlining largely shut black folks out of that ability to tap into that source of wealth, costing them billions, if not trillions, of dollars in wealth.

And the best current example is the criminal justice system. We have good evidence that the criminal justice system disadvantages black folks at every step of the process. The rate of incarceration for black folks, especially black men, is unconscionable. When combined with how we treat criminals who have served their sentences, the inevitable result is a permanent underclass of U.S. citizens based on race.

It's not enough to close our eyes and pretend we're color blind. That's just being willfully blind.

I won't be convinced that we've left racism behind as a country until white folks can have a rational conversation about race without getting all butthurt. Making the ridiculous claim that the only racism is talking about race = butthurt. Passing legislation prohibiting the teaching of a subject in circumstances where it isn't being taught = butthurt. Bursting into tears when a POC gives an example of racism in the work place = butthurt.

I don't wear a hair shirt over these issues. I simply view racism as a problem that keeps America from being the exceptional nation that it could be. "All men are created equal" are pretty words that have been a lie for most of our history as a country. I think it's worth living up to our ideals rather than just cosplaying them.

[drumdude]

Drumdude,

Your example of being a Harvard admissions officer (or maybe that is true?) is a fascinating area to step into when it comes to these types of discussions.

My day job is dealing with large amounts of data and using it to tell stories, do deep analysis, etc. A few years ago I was supporting an organization that is responsible for tracking human resources metrics across dozens of sub-organizations, we are talking close 100,000ish people. They have multiple initiatives to increase representation across all areas (hiring, promotions, management, etc.). What the data says is that they are doing better but missing their marks. What my research discovered was that the processes in place did not cultivate the changes they are trying to achieve. For example, if you consistently hire from engineering programs, ivy leagues, etc., it is hard to adequately diversify your new hires to hit the changes you hope to see. Even for internal promotions, there were instances that if every minority ion a group got promoted, the numbers would have still been a miss. My job was to explain these situations to the leadership and provide long term solutions that can be employed to move the needle in the intended direction.

These types of efforts are hard for everyone. Most people don't want to get the interview just so they could fill the quota. White males often feel looked over for positions they believe they deserve and did not get because of a perceived EEOD hire. But the truth is, maybe the traditional metrics that have "always been used" are bias? maybe they data we have used is broken and does not treat some groups fairly. If Harvard only focuses on bringing in students that fit the characteristics of successful students based on the last 20 years - 50 years of data, they might miss entire groups that would provide positive impact to education on campus.

I am more impressed with kids that achieve a 3.5 gpa from an inner city school than a suburb kid who got a 4.1. Diversity of thought, experience, background, daily life, these are all valuable to any org. Companies, schools, etc, need to look past the traditional signs of success and look at individuals and what they can bring. I deal with concerns about A.I. introducing bias to a given problem, but what I have found is that if the an A.I. solution is biased, it is because the data is biased, and it is a good thing to expose and help organizations fix these problems moving forward.

Teaching kids that life isn't fair goes both ways. Stephen E. Robinson has a quote, something like "God knows who is standing in a ditch and who is standing on a chair, that is why he measures growth not height." I like that idea but think we all need to apply it in our everyday lives.

It didn’t bother me seeing white people excluded, but when I saw that a huge portion of Asians were also being excluded it set off some red alarms that maybe there is something very wrong with this obsession with race. The ideology seems very similar to what failed so catastrophically in the USSR.

Communism is a great idea in theory, Marxism is a great tool for examining society, but when out into practice, well we’ve all seen the results… I don’t think it’s unreasonable to view critical race theory with the same skepticism especially considering the strong ties to Marxist thought within the discipline.