Peterson the historical skeptic

[MG 2.0]

No. But it does sound ‘other worldly’, doesn’t it?

Looks like there were purported witnesses. Do you believe these witnesses in this instance? If so, why? Was there any evidence of any sort left behind?

Regards,
MG

Let me state the question you should have asked.

Or in other words, let’s deflect.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

No. But it does sound ‘other worldly’, doesn’t it?

Looks like there were purported witnesses. Do you believe these witnesses in this instance? If so, why? Was there any evidence of any sort left behind?

Regards,
MG

I do. Why should I be skeptical? Do you believe the witnesses were lying?

Why do you believe? What is the evidence that convinces you in this instance?

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Briefly: I see Smith as deciding to do something that would capitalise on his known talents - persuading people that he had special powers (as in the glass-looking) and constructing elaborate narrratives about an imagined American past (as reported by his family). Going that route enabled him to live well without (as I think The Lord says in D&C somewhere?) his needing to 'labour'.

That needed a big effort, but he knew he had the talent, and made the most of his chances. I don't think it was easy for him to pull it off, but it was certainly better than farm work.

It’s debatable as to whether or not Joseph would have agreed with your assessment of “living well” as he constantly underwent threats to his life, libelous lawsuits, and while he sat (because he couldn’t stand) in the Liberty Jail. And that’s just a snapshot of the trials Joseph endured during a life that was cut short as the result of mob action.

He would have been MUCH better off without the Book of Mormon one might think. That is, in regards to all that transpired AFTER its publication. But the fact is, he did sacrifice much and endure hardship to get the Book of Mormon published. I suppose one can argue about the true purpose/reason for having done such until the cows come home.

Regards,
MG

-_-

Scrying, bank fraud, and ****ing kids tend to evoke that response from civil society.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

That is a nice humane way of putting it. (And that is not intended as in any way a denigration or mockery of what you wrote)

The problem with your approach seems to me to be that it ignores the history of the text. Writing a text is an act, and those who act have intentions, and wish to produce certain effects. The Book of Mormon was written by a man who, in the light of what he wrote, said and did, clearly wanted his readers to take the contents of the book he wrote as being a truly ancient and authentic text, which recounted events that really happened in the ancient Americas. When Smith's early followers took it 'as literal history', they were doing exactly what he intended them to do.

It’s interesting to notice that Joseph Smith made a decision to go through a convoluted process to bring the Book of Mormon about. Granted, some of those elements being present in other narratives that were available to him. Angels, stone boxes, etc. But to go through the translation process and the witnesses and movements about the region to continue the translation? Why go through all of that when it wasn’t really necessary to get a book/story out into circulation? Joseph had a hard enough time doing that as it was. Why go through an elaborate charade?

If he was intent on a windfall from publishing the Book of Mormon, in that respect he was a failure.

Are there other authors you can think of that went through and did what Joseph Smith did to get a ‘fictional’ book into print? Anything comparable?

Or is Joseph somewhat of an anomaly in this respect?

Also, it seems like he could have very easily have forgone all the stuff in the Book of Mormon that some scholars look at today (but not at the time of Joseph) as being evidences of its antiquity. He sure made a lot of effort for very little immediate return.

Regards,
MG

Reposting the initial questions asked. So far I haven’t seen anything that would convince me that these questions are not relevant/important.

I do appreciate the input though. I just don’t think it goes very deep, however.

A lazy farmboy? C’mon. Many witnesses from the past testify otherwise. Examples to the contrary noted.

IHAQ, I think you need to come up with more than that.

Regards,
MG

[doubtingthomas]

Why do you believe? What is the evidence that convinces you in this instance?

Regards,
MG

A large crowd of eyewitnesses can't be wrong. I am far more impressed with the Miracle of the Sun than I am with the Book of Mormon witnesses.

"De Marchi wrote that the prediction of an unspecified "miracle", the abrupt beginning and end of the event, the varied religious backgrounds of the observers, the sheer numbers of people present, reports of sightings by people up to 18 kilometres (11 mi) away, and the lack of any known scientific causative factor make a mass hallucination or mass hysteria unlikely.[42] De Marchi concludes that "given the indubitable reference to God, and the general context of the story, it seems that we must attribute to Him alone the most obvious and colossal miracle of history."[42] Leo Madigan, a former psychiatric nurse and local journalist at Fátima in the late 20th century, also dismisses suggestions from critics of mass hypnosis, and believes that astonishment, fear, exaltation and the spiritual nature of the phenomenon explain any inconsistency of witnesses descriptions. Madigan wrote that what people saw was "the reflection of the Lady's own light projected on the Sun itself".[43]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Many scholars believe in the Miracle of the Sun.

[MG 2.0]

It’s debatable as to whether or not Joseph would have agreed with your assessment of “living well” as he constantly underwent threats to his life, libelous lawsuits, and while he sat (because he couldn’t stand) in the Liberty Jail. And that’s just a snapshot of the trials Joseph endured during a life that was cut short as the result of mob action.

He would have been MUCH better off without the Book of Mormon one might think. That is, in regards to all that transpired AFTER its publication. But the fact is, he did sacrifice much and endure hardship to get the Book of Mormon published. I suppose one can argue about the true purpose/reason for having done such until the cows come home.

Regards,
MG

-_-

Scrying, bank fraud, and ****ing kids tend to evoke that response from civil society.

- Doc

It can be argued that “civil society” was not always present at these instances/times. But that’s another discussion.

Any answers or ‘deep dives’ in regards to the original questions I posed in this thread?

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

Let me state the question you should have asked.

Or in other words, let’s deflect.

Regards,
MG

The inner Bednar came out apologies.

[MG 2.0]

Why do you believe? What is the evidence that convinces you in this instance?

Regards,
MG

A large crowd of eyewitnesses can't be wrong. I am far more impressed with the Miracle of the Sun than I am for the Book of Mormon witnesses.

"De Marchi wrote that the prediction of an unspecified "miracle", the abrupt beginning and end of the event, the varied religious backgrounds of the observers, the sheer numbers of people present, reports of sightings by people up to 18 kilometres (11 mi) away, and the lack of any known scientific causative factor make a mass hallucination or mass hysteria unlikely.[42] De Marchi concludes that "given the indubitable reference to God, and the general context of the story, it seems that we must attribute to Him alone the most obvious and colossal miracle of history."[42] Leo Madigan, a former psychiatric nurse and local journalist at Fátima in the late 20th century, also dismisses suggestions from critics of mass hypnosis, and believes that astonishment, fear, exaltation and the spiritual nature of the phenomenon explain any inconsistency of witnesses descriptions. Madigan wrote that what people saw was "the reflection of the Lady's own light projected on the Sun itself".[43]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Many scholars believe in the Miracle of the Sun.

I’ve read about and watched a number of documentaries having to do with this particular example and others that seem to have ‘other worldly’ components. I am NOT going to dispute what others claim to be as spiritual experience with the paranormal.

Especially if it changes their lives for the better.

Whether or not ALL of these stories are true in the absolute sense, I am not going to be the judge. I do think that it is important to seek/look for evidence which is convincing.

That, of course, is going to vary from one person to another.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Or in other words, let’s deflect.

Regards,
MG

The inner Bednar came out apologies.

I didn’t mean to offend you. But I did see a deflection there. No apology necessary.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

-_-

Scrying, bank fraud, and ****ing kids tend to evoke that response from civil society.

- Doc

It can be argued that “civil society” was not always present at these instances/times. But that’s another discussion.

Any answers or ‘deep dives’ in regards to the original questions I posed in this thread?

Regards,
MG

That’s retarded. Stop being an oaf. Scrying, bank fraud, and ****ing kids and other men’s wives tend to land you in hot water.

- Doc