Daniel Peterson and D&C 131.

[DrStakhanovite]

Now this is a sage observation. I get better why you made your post now, thank you. See? I gotta watch myself all the flippin time! I was thinking in today's concepts instead of the 19th century's...

You are just making sure we are doing our due diligence, challenging my posts is a necessary part of discussion

[Philo Sofee]

Uh, I don't see Peterson denying materialism at all in those posts. He is merely contexting it into a larger shall I dare say form? Lol. I think you are sort of misreading his view.

Let's take 'Self-refuting materialism' and look at this quote from 'Miracles' by C.S. Lewis, someone whom Daniel greatly admires:

“If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true . . . and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. . . .

“A theory which explained everything else in the whole universe but which made it impossible to believe that our thinking was valid would be utterly out of court. For that theory would itself have been reached by thinking, and if thinking is not valid that theory would, of course, be demolished. It would have destroyed its own credentials. It would be an argument which proved that no argument was sound — a proof that there are no such things as proofs.”

If D&C 131 is correct, then everyone's mental processes are wholly determined by matter in motion. How do you think Daniel would argue contra Lewis, that his beliefs are true considering his brain and all his thoughts are essentially material?

Ha! That's almost worth going over to Sic et Non to ask him.

[Philo Sofee]

Now this is a sage observation. I get better why you made your post now, thank you. See? I gotta watch myself all the flippin time! I was thinking in today's concepts instead of the 19th century's...

You are just making sure we are doing our due diligence, challenging my posts is a necessary part of discussion

I don't have half the brains to challenge anyone's post (well, I mean except Altantic Mike's ) I'm just tryin hard to keep up, and I do appreciate your posts.

[Res Ipsa]

7.There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8.We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The above passage is an unambiguous metaphysical declaration and (to some) a divine revelation that the immaterial is non-existent and that everything on a fundamental level is comprised of matter.

Daniel Peterson has made numerous and explicit denials of materialism.

What possible strategies could Daniel Peterson use to bring his metaphysics in accordance with the revealed truth from God in D&C 131?

Spend an hour or two with Ed, who at least pays attention to scripture and stuff.

[Alphus and Omegus]

D&C 131 is yet another example of Joseph Smith translating contemporary scientific beliefs into supposed revelations. The Word of Wisdom and the astronomy of the Book of Abraham are others.

In this case, Smith was trying to give divine sanction to the then-popular belief that light travelled through an invisible and imperceptible medium called "luminiferous aether" or "ether."

The materialism of Mormonism was spelled out even more extensively in Section 88:6-13:

He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

That spirit was ether was apparent to LDS leaders who lived prior to Einstein's mathematical demonstrations that ether could not exist. As Joseph Fielding Smith put it:

"The Spirit of God which emanates from Deity may be likened to electricity, or the universal ether, as explained in our manual, which fills the earth and the air, and is everywhere present. It is the power of God, the influence that he exerts throughout all his works by which he can effect his purposes and execute his will, in consonance with the laws of free agency which he has conferred upon man. By means of this Spirit every man is enlightened, the wicked as well as the good, the intelligent and the ignorant, the high and the low, each in accordance with his capacity to receive the light."

BH Roberts described the doctrine as well in The History of the Church:

". . . from the presence of these Divine Beings proceeds an essence or substance (perhaps like unto ether) variously called 'spirit,' 'light,' 'light of truth,' 'light of Christ,' corresponding somewhat to what other teachers regard as 'vital force' or 'energy' which permeates all nature and constitutes the immanence of God in the universe; through which the purposes of the Divine Intelligence are impressed upon other minds and also upon matter, and hence the orderly creations and their maintenance—the cosmos."

The obviously incorrect scientific beliefs ascribed to "God" are one of the best proofs that Mormonism is untrue.

[drumdude]

What possible strategies could Daniel Peterson use to bring his metaphysics in accordance with the revealed truth from God in D&C 131?

The church needs to bend itself to Peterson's metaphysics. See: his pet Mezoamerica theory.

[huckelberry]

,,,,,
In this case, Smith was trying to give divine sanction to the then-popular belief that light travelled through an invisible and imperceptible medium called "luminiferous aether" or "ether."

The materialism of Mormonism was spelled out even more extensively in Section 88:6-13:

He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
etc....light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

That spirit was ether was apparent to LDS leaders who lived prior to Einstein's mathematical demonstrations that ether could not exist. As Joseph Fielding Smith put it:

"The Spirit of God which emanates from Deity may be likened to electricity, or the universal ether, as explained in our manual, which fills the earth and the air, and is everywhere present. It is the power of God, the influence that he exerts throughout all his works by which he can effect his purposes and execute his will, in consonance with the laws of free agency which he has conferred upon man. By means of this Spirit every man is enlightened, the wicked as well as the good, the intelligent and the ignorant, the high and the low, each in accordance with his capacity to receive the light."

BH Roberts described the doctrine as well in The History of the Church:

". . . from the presence of these Divine Beings proceeds an essence or substance (perhaps like unto ether) variously called 'spirit,' 'light,' 'light of truth,' 'light of Christ,' corresponding somewhat to what other teachers regard as 'vital force' or 'energy' which permeates all nature and constitutes the immanence of God in the universe;........

The obviously incorrect scientific beliefs ascribed to "God" are one of the best proofs that Mormonism is untrue.

Alpha and Omegus, I may being missing something you are looking at but to my understanding it is clearly an analogy to the concept of ether which is under consideration not an identity one with the other. The fact that the idea of ether has been shown to be an incorrect understanding of light does not help nor hinder the analogy. I do not see much in the analogy which is different than proposals in the opening of the gospel of John. It sounds like fairly traditional speech about the power of God.

Well there could be some move in those words to seeing the power of God as something existing before and logically prior to the individuation of God. That would be not so traditional. Whether or not that lean in thought is a good or bad idea I do not think it is dependent upon the specific ideas of ether. Ether was an idea of the time which could be used for an analogy.

[huckelberry]

Uh, I don't see Peterson denying materialism at all in those posts. He is merely contexting it into a larger shall I dare say form? Lol. I think you are sort of misreading his view.

Let's take 'Self-refuting materialism' and look at this quote from 'Miracles' by C.S. Lewis, someone whom Daniel greatly admires:

“If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true . . . and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. . . .

“A theory which explained everything else in the whole universe but which made it impossible to believe that our thinking was valid would be utterly out of court. For that theory would itself have been reached by thinking, and if thinking is not valid that theory would, of course, be demolished. It would have destroyed its own credentials. It would be an argument which proved that no argument was sound — a proof that there are no such things as proofs.”

If D&C 131 is correct, then everyone's mental processes are wholly determined by matter in motion. How do you think Daniel would argue contra Lewis, that his beliefs are true considering his brain and all his thoughts are essentially material?

DrShakhanovite, I have had some enjoyment and appreciation for CS Lewis, but for the book Miracles not so much. I find the argument presented here painfully oversimplified. It appears unaware that atoms in flexible ordered arrangements, may not be different than ideas. At least I do not think the matter has been completely resolved. Ordered arrangement may have an evolutionary form of survival of the fittest which moves closer to truth in the experience of living organisms.

One might consider it so flexible that it is not a concept at all.

I dunno, if the words are so semantically empty that they don’t carry conceptual content at all then we’ve entered into a territory not worth defending.

It does not say it is part of our space time.

What kind of matter exists outside spacetime?

It does not say it is involved in anyway with what physics has studied.

19th century use of “matter” absolutely does.

I have no way of really determining if there is such a thing as matter outside of our space time. It is speculative at best, Perhaps word twiddling. It is possible to define matter as stuff in our space time obeying laws of inertia gravity and relationship to energy. I do not think it is clear that the idea of spirit here has to fit that limited definition. I think you are correct about normal 19th century usage but people sometimes push the boundaries of usual meanings to make a point.

My first thought about spirit is matter refined is that it says so little specifically that there is nothing to really defend.

I continue to see ,though I seem to miss a way of saying it that people care about, that Smith was thinking about a way to make matter and this life more substantial than Aquinas view that the world is all ideas in the mind of God destined to be reabsorbed into God.

[Physics Guy]

“If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true ... .

Lewis's general strategy of meta-argument here may have been interesting, but he screwed it up totally at the first step. Why on Earth should atomic motions have nothing to do with truth? To suppose that nothing which is determined by atomic motions can ever have any tendency towards truth is obviously idiotic. Even the simplest mechanical computers can perform reliably perfect arithmetic. Lewis's premise is only even plausible if one simply hasn't thought about the issue seriously at all.

If we actually think about how atoms behave, we should realize there is every reason to suppose that a large number of atoms subject to the laws of nature including natural selection will end up collectively encoding an accurate depiction of reality. Large collections of atoms that can reproduce their organisational patterns and also manage to simulate the world accurately have a huge selection advantage.

Their patterns proliferate. Here we are. Lewis's argument is nonsense.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If D&C 131 is correct, then everyone's mental processes are wholly determined by matter in motion. How do you think Daniel would argue contra Lewis, that his beliefs are true considering his brain and all his thoughts are essentially material?

Huh. Sorta gives Morgbot a whole new meaning.

- Doc