Shulem Cracks Book of Mormon Geography

[Marcus]

Shallow....

Your responses are what's shallow. Try to keep up.

Let's get back to the depths with Shulem.

[being shallow]

So what do you think of Cowdery's dedicatory prayer for the dead bones at the vale of Cumorah? How about you share something of substance in that regard and talk about the geography? That would be nice.

[Shulem]

You have to maneuver around a bit to take this position.

MG,

It’s a straightforward declaration and requires no maneuvering. Joseph mumbled words and sentences while his face was buried in a hat and Cowdery wrote it down as if he was getting it from the divine. Only converted Mormons believe that. The world takes a straight forward approach in recognizing it as nothing more than a cult-like bizarre translation ritual.

I don’t care about any of those other experiences Cowdery may have claimed to have. They are not germane to this thread but only serve to demonstrate more deception on both their parts. I wouldn’t trust Cowdery any further than I could throw him. I really don’t want to talk about those other experiences that have nothing to do with the production of the Book of Mormon.

[Shulem]

By the way, I think Oliver believed the NY Cumorah to be THE Hill Cumorah where Moroni buried the plates and the last battles occurred.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere, finally. We have established that YOU believe Cowdery believed the last battles occurred at Cumorah. Those battles of course being the Jaredite and Nephite battles, respectively.

[X] MG Believes Cowdery believed the last battles were at Cumorah

Let’s take it further, please. HOW did Cowdery come to that belief? Was it more than just his personal opinion? Wasn’t he in spiritual cahoots with Joseph Smith in believing that? How about the Spirit of God? Did that have any influence in Cowdery’s mind and heart?

Check the box that best fits your opinion of how Cowdery believed the last battles were at Cumorah.

[ ] The Holy Ghost bore testimony to Cowdery that the last battles occurred at Cumorah
[ ] It was only Cowdery’s personal opinion that the last battles occurred at Cumorah

[Moksha]

Question: What percentage of the New World’s history, and all that this may pertain to, is a ‘done deal’?

Regards,
MG

The Joseph Smith-Captain Kidd-buried golden treasure-Susquehanna River is one of those "Aha!" connections. Meeting the geographical specifications, and not having an impossible distance to Hill Cumorah are all good signs that Joseph was making his story location within realistic bounds. Wish he could have done some plot consultation with the 16th Century time portal bard's committee of translators. Could have alternated "it came to pass" with forsooth and yea verily yea.

[Shulem]

Question: What percentage of the New World’s history, and all that this may pertain to, is a ‘done deal’?

Well, there is a narrow neck wherein the width takes a day to cross from sea to sea. Directional wise, you can go through the length of the neck which takes a day and a half in order enter into the land northward having journeyed from the south:

• flee into the land northward

• stop their flight into the land northward

• by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward

• marching into the land northward

• secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward

• by the narrow neck which led into the land northward

• Lamanites did go into the land northward

• Nephi and Lehi went into the land northward

The same principle applies when going south through the narrow neck. It’s evident that the Nephites knew the four cardinal directions of NORTH and SOUTH and that the sun always rises in the EAST and sets in the WEST. It has ever been that way and always will. All the Book of Mormon characters knew that as did Joseph Smith who authored the book.

• carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla

• Lamanites did give unto us the land northward, yea, even to the narrow passage which led into the land southward

• fled into the land southward

• they did go into the land southward, to hunt food

MG, where is that narrow neck? Please point on the map and show me. Let’s discuss that narrow neck and how long it might take you to traverse through it from north to south and how long it might take you to cross it from west to east. It is a neck of land having an area of specific proportion and size. The main thread discusses the neck in detail.

Where is that neck?

[MG 2.0]

You have to maneuver around a bit to take this position.

MG,

It’s a straightforward declaration and requires no maneuvering. Joseph mumbled words and sentences while his face was buried in a hat and Cowdery wrote it down as if he was getting it from the divine. Only converted Mormons believe that. The world takes a straight forward approach in recognizing it as nothing more than a cult-like bizarre translation ritual.

I don’t care about any of those other experiences Cowdery may have claimed to have. They are not germane to this thread but only serve to demonstrate more deception on both their parts.

That’s compartmentalizing.

Reminds me of the lyrics to the old Simon and Garfunkel song: “a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest…la la la la la.”

Personally, I think looking at things in a broader context helps us understand things better. Looking at the macro to better understand the micro.

It’s the Monet painting illustration I periodically bring up. Pun intended.

Or the horse with blinders analogy.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

[ ] The Holy Ghost bore testimony to Cowdery that the last battles occurred at Cumorah
[ ] It was only Cowdery’s personal opinion that the last battles occurred at Cumorah

He believed the final battles took place around the vicinity of Cumorah. That much we know.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Where is that neck?

Obviously it depends on where the events of the Book of Mormon took place.

For years I’ve subscribed to the FARMS crowd and their Mesoamerican theories. Now, I’m not so sure. I’m looking at Jonathan Neville’s stuff nowadays and doing some additional research/thinking on Book of Mormon geography with the realization that corrective measures may need to be taken.

I believe the Book of Mormon to be an actual artifact from ancient times but I’m not completely settled on where the Book of Mormon lands may have been.

Have you read or researched Jonathan Neville’s writings/books? Moroni’s America, etc.?

Truthfully…I’m looking at geography that fits in the Book of Mormon narrative as a whole. Not a geography that begins with the assumption that the Book of Mormon is fiction.

I suppose that’s mainly where we differ.

Regards,
MG

[Tator]

The Joseph Smith-Captain Kidd-buried golden treasure-Susquehanna River is one of those "Aha!" connections. Meeting the geographical specifications, and not having an impossible distance to Hill Cumorah are all good signs that Joseph was making his story location within realistic bounds.

Yes, it is an "Aha!" for me and a significant historical connection to Joe's novel. Joe had every resource he needed in his present day to let his imagination run with his story. Delmarva is a perfect fit.

[Shulem]

That’s compartmentalizing.

Reminds me of the lyrics to the old Simon and Garfunkel song: “a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest…la la la la la.”

Personally, I think looking at things in a broader context helps us understand things better. Looking at the macro to better understand the micro.

It’s the Monet painting illustration I periodically bring up. Pun intended.

Or the horse with blinders analogy.

I'm nothing like a horse and am not wearing blinders. This thread is a compartment and is specific to Book of Mormon geography, NOT the spiritual experiences of the life of Oliver Cowdery. However, if those experiences relate directly to the geography of the Book of Mormon then by all means let's include it in the thread. If we journey into the macro universe we won't be able to examine the micro, so here we are under the microscope and carefully uncovering the facts. I'm not going to let you take my eye off the ball, MG.

And I love Simon and Garfunkel but I love Led Zeppelin a lot more. But you see, that's another subject too and doesn't relate to Book of Mormon geography.