DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

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Analytics
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Analytics »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:56 pm
I can see people already living in Missouri getting fed up with a branch dividian type group invading the land, claiming the entire land as branch dividian zion, and then starting to dominate politics. The same type of unrest was happening in Illinois prior to Joseph Smith getting murdered. Now, were the Missourians motivated by hate for the church because Satan somehow was inspiring them? No. Did they demand that Whitmer recant? Perhaps, but the motivation had to have been, in great part, over political control.
Excellent point.

It is striking how much the sanitized version of Mormon history depends upon villainizing everyone who was negatively impacted by Joseph Smith's social experiments.
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Tom »

The 1968 film on the Three Witnesses can be watched on YouTube here.
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Dr Moore »

Thanks for the review. I'd like to see it, but alas the film is not showing in my area except as a private watch party theater rental. I'll have to wait for the DVD to appear on shelves at my local Blockbuster.
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Lem »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:36 pm
...I'll have to wait for the DVD to appear on shelves at my local Blockbuster.
:lol: Unless you live in that little town in Oregon, I'm guessing that will be the twelfth of Never?
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Tom wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:34 pm
The 1968 film on the Three Witnesses can be watched on YouTube here.
As of today, 37,328 people have viewed the movie on youtube. At $9 a ticket that would be $335,952 if this movie was showing in theaters.

It looks like more people have viewed this film on youtube than have watched DCP's Witnesses in theaters.
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

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Analytics wrote:3-Did the villains seem at all believable, or were they one-dimensional caricatures? From the trailer, I just can't imagine why an angry mob would get their torches and pitchforks and demand that David recant his testimony.
I haven't seen the movie but I can explain this scene.

DCP hilariously manufactures imagined criticisms of the witnesses such as false memory that critics would never make and then responds to it. The problem with the Book of Mormon witnesses is that they had a massive incentive for something really sketchy to be true, and they were out to confirm it as a team. DCP ought to consider Dr. Stephen Greer's material, where he takes a dozen "witnesses" at a time into the mountains to make contact with aliens, and it ain't a cheap outing, by the way.

The witness is received after the trial of faith: after a big sacrifice to confirm that thing you want to believe in so desperately, and while surrounded by others also desperate to believe. These were the witnesses of the gold plates. Witnesses based on a theology that integrates 'witnessing' itself into confirmation and establishes believing before the fact as the goal, rather than objectively evaluating anything in a way credible to outsiders.

Nobody takes these kinds of "witnesses" seriously. And DCP's own movie understands this with crystal clarity.

As both Stem and Shades have reported, the movie seems to -- as I suspected after watching the last trailer -- undermine its own theology of witnesses. This scene is the most extreme example so far. Nobody is going to believe David Whitmer saw an angel and golden plates. In the narrative, however, the best they can do is establish the credibility of Whitmer by the testimony of an angry mob leader who against his own incentives and intentions, is forced to vouch for Witmer's character and let him go.

This undermines the theology of witnesses in two ways. The movie demonstrates that credible witnesses are actually either neutral parties, such as the reporter, or better, enemies with opposing incentives. A compliment from your enemy means more than a compliment from your friend. So the narrative has multiple parties who don't know each other, who are either neutral or opposed to the witnesses, vindicating both Joseph Smith and the witnesses, thus showing what witness credibility is all about. That's undermining move #1. (Dr. Moore also adds to this with his observation that they create tension between the witnesses and Smith to show witness credibility)

The second undermining, for me, is more interesting. A long time ago I read (or thumbed through) a commentary on the New Testament that styled itself as 'postmodern' commentary. The portions I read were pretty creative, one-upping Jesus, 'the master of the one-liner' with observations that out-Jesus Jesus. Jesus said to the Pharisees, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and the scribes and Pharisees are shown to be without integrity -- a bunch of hypocrites. However, immediately upon considering the words of Jesus, the Pharisees saw their error and course-corrected, thus in actuality, proving to be men of serious integrity. The woman wasn't saved by Jesus' words, but by the honesty of the Pharisees.

Back to the movie, the leader of the mob who let David go, in the narrative at least, is established as an honest man of principle -- you need that in order to feel like David hadn't just escaped, but that he'd been vindicated by truth. In other words, by convincing their hypothetical audience that Whitmer was credible, by showing a sworn enemy perceiving the objective truth of it and letting him go, the narrative is really telling you that Joseph should have reduced the equation, and simply shown the plates to outsiders or even enemies, such as that mob leader, in the first place -- somebody who the hypothetical audience would take seriously.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Analytics »

Gadianton wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:00 pm
Analytics wrote:3-Did the villains seem at all believable, or were they one-dimensional caricatures? From the trailer, I just can't imagine why an angry mob would get their torches and pitchforks and demand that David recant his testimony.
I haven't seen the movie but I can explain this scene.

DCP hilariously manufactures imagined criticisms of the witnesses such as false memory that critics would never make and then responds to it. The problem with the Book of Mormon witnesses is that they had a massive incentive for something really sketchy to be true, and they were out to confirm it as a team. DCP ought to consider Dr. Stephen Greer's material, where he takes a dozen "witnesses" at a time into the mountains to make contact with aliens, and it ain't a cheap outing, by the way.

The witness is received after the trial of faith: after a big sacrifice to confirm that thing you want to believe in so desperately, and while surrounded by others also desperate to believe. These were the witnesses of the gold plates. Witnesses based on a theology that integrates 'witnessing' itself into confirmation and establishes believing before the fact as the goal, rather than objectively evaluating anything in a way credible to outsiders.

Nobody takes these kinds of "witnesses" seriously. And DCP's own movie understands this with crystal clarity.

As both Stem and Shades have reported, the movie seems to -- as I suspected after watching the last trailer -- undermine its own theology of witnesses. This scene is the most extreme example so far. Nobody is going to believe David Whitmer saw an angel and golden plates. In the narrative, however, the best they can do is establish the credibility of Whitmer by the testimony of an angry mob leader who against his own incentives and intentions, is forced to vouch for Witmer's character and let him go.

This undermines the theology of witnesses in two ways. The movie demonstrates that credible witnesses are actually either neutral parties, such as the reporter, or better, enemies with opposing incentives....
Brilliant analysis; thanks.
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Dr Moore »

Gadianton wrote:The witness is received after the trial of faith: after a big sacrifice to confirm that thing you want to believe in so desperately, and while surrounded by others also desperate to believe. These were the witnesses of the gold plates. Witnesses based on a theology that integrates 'witnessing' itself into confirmation and establishes believing before the fact as the goal, rather than objectively evaluating anything in a way credible to outsiders.
Wow, Dean, I'm spellbound. This is a really interesting take - the witness coming after an indeterminate trial of faith.

Is it possible the 3 witnesses held to their witness testimonies precisely to pass their faith trial, with hope of eventually receiving the actual witness (perhaps in the afterlife?)?

In that case, the witness testimonies would be no different from, say, thanking the Lord in advance for a blessing, or confidently prophesying (commonplace in those early years). So, the testimony itself opens the door to the assured witness? Wow...

Then the witness would have required some indeterminate, maybe life-long trial of faith, and could that trial of faith be precisely the thing the witnesses struggled with -- Joseph becoming a fallen prophet? I guess the terms would have been private between Joseph and the witnesses, but for sure would be consistent with breaking away from the fallen prophet while holding out hope that God would cash in their commitment to testimony with a personal witness and angelic visitation.

This scenario would not be inconsistent with apologetic redefinitions of "prophecy" by Mormon leaders. And would be just the sort of twisted scheme Joseph alone could have pulled off with believing supporters. Same way his treasure digging "clients" witnessed far and wide, giving notoriety to Joseph's abilities around neighboring counties, despite none of them having ever seen any actual treasure.

Amazing...
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Gadianton »

That would be the ultimate long-game of faith, and ultimate cog-dis, Dr. Moore. It's very possible they were inspired by Joseph Smith's particular kind of religious vision, one that exists independent of Joseph himself. A friend of mine from way back was practicing a modified version of Dianetics long after he'd left the sea org and left Scientology, and disdained L. Ron and Mike. It was a major life focus, even amid being harassed years later.

I wasn't thinking about it in this ultimate sense but it's a pretty compelling scenario.

In the minimal sense, I hate to sound circular but, what other option is there? He doesn't have plates, and he's got to get people to say he does have plates. Right, I see your point about the ultimate bait.

here is that week-long retreat to make contact with aliens. If you poke around a little there are testimonials that indeed, contact made.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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Re: DR. SHADES GOES TO THE MOVIES--or, My review of "Witnesses"

Post by Philo Sofee »

Gad
here is that week-long retreat to make contact with aliens. If you poke around a little there are testimonials that indeed, contact made.
I can't stop laughing! But then again, there are still millions also paying Mormonism their tithing! Is this actually real?! Oh my hell I just can't stop laughing!!! I'm gonna do this! Moroni here I come!!!
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