What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

[Kukulkan]

We don't know that, things are a little bit different now. "Russia banned the use of leaded gasoline nationwide in 2003".

I'm sure the banning of leaded gasoline is of great comfort to Alexei Navalny, and countless others.

[MeDotOrg]

In late July 1945, the War Department provided an estimate that the entire Downfall operations would cause between 1.7 to 4 million U.S. casualties, including 400-800,000 U.S. dead, and 5 to 10 million Japanese dead.

Source:https://www.history.navy.mil/about-us/l ... se%20dead.

Arguably, the dropping of the nuclear bombs was the lesser of two evils.

A father of a friend was one of the Marines scheduled to take part in the mainland invasion of Japan. While waiting, every night they played poker. They all knew they were going to die, so massive fortunes were made and lost every night. Money had no meaning for them.

I believe that the atomic bombing of Hiroshima saved lives after the war. You can show pictures of an atomic bomb going off in the desert and people will think "that's a big explosion'. The visceral graphic images of Hiroshima and Nagasaki told the world that in no uncertain terms we had to change the way we think about war, and we have.

If the United States hadn't used atomic weapons in 1945, the world could have learned the horrors of nuclear war in a much larger conflict.

Having said that, I think there ARE arguments to be made that the bombing of Nagasaki was not necessary. While my friend's father sat on Okinawa waiting for his life to end, another man I knew was beginning life in his mother's uterus during the bombing of Nagasaki. He suffered from birth defects his entire life. Should we have given the Japanese more time to digest what actually happened at Hiroshima? I think so.

[Kishkumen]

The US doesn't run NATO. If Putin couldn't use NATO as an excuse, he would simply manufacture another one. In fact, he's manufactured several more already. Putin's desire to militarily conquer Ukraine has everything to do with restoring the power of the former Soviet Union and nothing to do with NATO.

Exactly. RI makes the point more lucidly than I could, and he is right.

[doubtingthomas]

The Ukrainians are entitled to defend their country any way they can and wish. Your feelings are irrelevant to the question.

It is simply common sense. A lot of innocent civilians are dying. I just hope Russia doesn't use chemical weapons.

[Kukulkan]

The Ukrainians are entitled to defend their country any way they can and wish. Your feelings are irrelevant to the question.

It is simply common sense. A lot of innocent civilians are dying. I just hope Russia doesn't use chemical weapons.

Why is the onus on the Ukrainians to surrender in order to stop the civilian casualties but not the Russians?

[doubtingthomas]

Why is the onus on the Ukrainians to surrender in order to stop the civilian casualties but not the Russians?

So if a guy with a gun tells you "Your car or your family". What would you do?

[doubtingthomas]

The US doesn't run NATO. If Putin couldn't use NATO as an excuse, he would simply manufacture another one.

Yes maybe, but the Nato expansion is a security concern for Russia. It is not impossible for a Nato member to do a false flag operation.

[Kukulkan]

Why is the onus on the Ukrainians to surrender in order to stop the civilian casualties but not the Russians?

So if a guy with a gun tells you "Your car or your family". What would you do?

Stop making improper analogies.

I am assuming in your analogy that car = Ukraine's sovereignty and family = Ukrainian lives.

In this situation it is absolutely reasonable to assume that someone would rather give up their car in order to save their family. But Ukrainians have made it absolutely clear they are willing to sacrifice their lives in order to preserve their sovereignty. Your car vs your countries sovereignty are two completely different things and one is valued infinitely more than the other. To take that one step further and to make the statement that UKRAINE is the one that needs to lay down their arms in the face of mass murder and mass imprisonment is absolutely insane.

[Res Ipsa]

DT, I really think you have to think about this through the lens of World War II and the Cold War. The world appeased Hitler for quite a while, and millions of Jews and others were slaughtered. You also should probably think about what Stalin did to Ukraine back in his day. Death and imprisonment would be the inevitable result of Russia conquering Ukraine.

We don't know that, things are a little bit different now. "Russia banned the use of leaded gasoline nationwide in 2003".

If Russia conquers Ukraine, the death and destruction will not end. Putin will execute or imprison any Ukrainians that oppose him politically.

In the US millions of non-violent drug offenders are arrested.

As I said things are a little bit different now, we don't really know what Putin would do.

You are welcome to wring your hands about it and chastise others, but that shouldn't get in the way of doing the right thing.

Well, all the defending should have happened at the border. The war should now be over in my opinion. I don't want a nuclear war.

Putin has a track record. Including a similar invasion of Chechnya and takeover of Crimea. One of his pretexts for invasion is that the Ukrainians who oppose a Russian takeover are Nazis. Do you think he plans to give them candy and flowers?

You seem to be raising random elements that have no relevance to your argument. Banning of leaded gasoline tells us nothing about what Putin should be expected to do in the Ukraine. America imprisoning non-violent law breakers has nothing to do with Putin jailing people who have done nothing other than oppose him.

What, your notion is that once an invading nation crosses the border of the nation it is invading, it should just surrender? It's not Ukrainians who are destroying Ukranian cities. It's Russia.

There never should have been a war, in my opinion. Sadly, Putin doesn't give a rats ass about my opinion, your opinion, or the opinion of billions of world citizens. That's how authoritarians are. What you propose is given a green light to any nation to simply invade it's neighbors whenever it wants. You're promoting perpetual warfare everywhere.

I get that you don't like war. I don't like it either. I get that you're afraid of nuclear war. I am too. But other people in other countries aren't going to conduct their affairs for the purpose of reducing your anxiety.

[Res Ipsa]

The US doesn't run NATO. If Putin couldn't use NATO as an excuse, he would simply manufacture another one.

Yes maybe, but the Nato expansion is a security concern for Russia. It is not impossible for a Nato member to do a false flag operation.

What the heck are you talking about? The U.S. has all kinds of security concerns. Does that justify militarily taking over Canada?