Shulem Cracks Book of Mormon Geography

[Shulem]

Joseph Smith was no Tolkien.

Regards,
MG

mg, of course you are correct here. Joseph Smith was Joseph Smith an individual with his own interests and abilities. They would not match some other individual for comparisons.

Does his book have lands to the south of where the Nephites landed?

There are NO lands to the south of Lehi’s landing. After Nephi split and took his band northward to escape persecution from Laman & Lemuel, there was a considerable time spent in the land of Nephi but they were at constant war with their cursed brethren whose skins were made dark because of their sins. Time passed until the next *destination* in the novel is mentioned -- a journey into the Nephite Twilight Zone. That is when we learn that Mosiah and his white and delightsome subjects fled and found the people of Zarahemla. The people of Zarahemla were led out of the Old World and left Jerusalem to sail across the ocean to the promised land. They settled in the promised land and established Zarahemla. The Book of Mormon tells us that they “were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them” which means that the ocean blue, the great brine, was their path and they embarked on the land of promise and established Zarahemla. The OCEAN was nearby! Indeed it was! The ocean or the sea was ever present!

Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him, into the wilderness . . . through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla.

I’m afraid that MG is stuck between a rock and a hard place in describing HOW Mosiah came “DOWN” into the land of Zarahemla.

Show us on a REAL map, MG. How did Mosiah come down and find the people of Zarahemla which ultimately lead to him being crowned their king?

Show me that very spot on the map, MG. Show me!



MG, I honestly do not know how you can do that using the apologetic maps available to you. However, you can use my map and it will work out perfectly. I got my map from Joseph Smith. What do you say about that? Do you believe me?

[Shulem]

[Shulem]

The people of Zarahemla were led out of the Old World and left Jerusalem to sail across the ocean to the promised land. They settled in the promised land and established Zarahemla. The Book of Mormon tells us that they “were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them” which means that the ocean blue, the great brine, was their path and they embarked on the land of promise and established Zarahemla. The OCEAN was nearby! Indeed it was! The ocean or the sea was ever present!

I must reiterate the above point and connect it with the geography from a more complete angle that involves both land and sea. This is vital because it proves that Zarahemla was in fact a coastal city and that the very ocean was nearby. This of course instantly destroys the Heartland models who have no ocean and also leaves the Mesoamerican models wanting for a variety of reasons. The citation above about Zarahemla being founded is not complete but the remainder of Omni’s reference brings everything to full view. I will explain this.

And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth.

• The people of Zarahemla had crossed the ocean from the land of Jerusalem
• The people of Zarahemla made a permanent settlement

Note how when they founded Zarahemla from the get-go it ever remained their permanent abode because they remained there from that time forth until they were discovered by Mosiah. *THAT* very land was the land associated with their original landing. How so?

• They sailed across the great waters (OCEAN)
• Thereafter, their ship landed on the coast and they disembarked
• They went “into the land”

The connection between their landing and going into the land is intimately joined together as one leg of their final journey. It reminds us of Lehi landing at his first inheritance whereby they immediately began to colonize and plant their seeds. There was no long journey inland or trek mentioned in the story. They simply disembarked and began to utilize all the natural resources at hand. Naturally, this would include the inlands of the coast and the very sea itself with all its resources. We learn how Nephi disbanded and took his clan into the wilderness to settle another colony, but in the case of the people of Zarahemla, they stayed within the region they first settled and remained or ever dwelt there until they were discovered by Mosiah.

This implies that the OCEAN was in close proximity to Zarahemla! It’s undeniable and completely logical that land and sea were combined together in the Zarahemla experience. Besides, the record tells us that the whole land to include Zarahemla and the land of Nephi was like an isle nearly surrounded by water. The whole thing makes sense from this perspective. Therefore, the city of Zarahemla was on the coast where the salty waves of the ocean forever crash the banks and sand is ever present.

But where?

Ahoy, the people of Zarahemla sailed into the Chesapeake Bay and landed on the western flank of Delmarva. That is what Joseph Smith envisioned. And make way for Captain Kidd! Lo and behold he cometh too and with treasure!

[Shulem]

This implies that the OCEAN was in close proximity to Zarahemla! It’s undeniable and completely logical that land and sea were combined together in the Zarahemla experience.

In order to further strengthen my argument that Zarahemla was within close proximity of the OCEAN, I would like to introduce a few citations to illustrate this concept whereby everyone should think of Zarahemla as a coastal land that extends considerably inland to boundaries that comprise the entire kingdom of Zarahemla. Zarahemla was a kingdom and it had its own capital and a temple.

27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.

Note above in verse 28 that the land of Zarahemla borders the seashore even as the place of Lehi’s first inheritance borders the seashore. Thus, the seashore and sea in both cases is the ocean! It is absolutely clear that the salt water ocean is the “seashore” mentioned in the text for both lands:

• land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore

• fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore

And finally, to seal the deal in proving that Zarahemla was a coastal land, much of which was surrounded by ocean, we only need refer to the seafaring people who first inherited the land. They arrived by ship, disembarked, and claimed the seashore, territorial land inward, and called it Zarahemla which was the place they originally landed. Look at all the ocean surrounding the coastal lands of Zarahemla. This is what is meant by seashore in the Book of Mormon.

MG, do you understand this and how it destroys the Heartland model in which you have recently been considering? Delmarva is the one and only answer.

. . . which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.

[Shulem]

. . . the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water . . .

[Shulem]

5 And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father’s name was Mormon) I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me.

6 And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla.

7 The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.

What did young Mormon know about the sands of the sea? Well, he enjoyed the ocean and the sand and the water under his feet.

I believe that I’ve made my case that Zarahemla was oceanfront property in the Book of Mormon. I also believe that readers who refuse to see the light when the light is shining on them will remain in the dark, so to speak, where they seem to be most comfortable. I am sure and totally convinced that Delmarva is the place where Joseph designed the geography for his novel. Won’t you too join me?

What will it take to convince YOU? Where else can you turn for an answer? The answer has been provided on this board, finally.

[Shulem]

What did young Mormon know about the sands of the sea? Well, he enjoyed the ocean and the sand and the water under his feet.

Both Mormon and Joseph Smith (one in the same) loved the babes. They knew all about ships and that they are the girls of the sea as expressed in modern times.

wither she did go

Waves, sails, and anchors! There she blows! (Mormon 5:18)

[Shulem]

Waves, sails, and anchors! There she blows!

“But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her; and even as she is, so are they.” (Mormon 5:18)

The ocean plays a very important role in the Book of Mormon and continues to play a part every time the sea or seashore is mentioned. The seas in the Book of Mormon are not large lakes or fresh bodies of water, per se. The seashore in the Book of Mormon is the honest to goodness salted coast, dressed with sand, and all manner of marine life. Can you hear the gulls? The seashore in the Book of Mormon is the ocean. Make no mistake in thinking that the sand of the seashore mentioned by Mormon do not allude to the ocean. The expression of numerous people like the sand of the sea is a direct reference to the ocean. And add to the ocean ships to sail across! Such requires a sail and an anchor to make port.

The ocean was indigenous to thoughts expressed by the characters in the Book of Mormon, all of whom were Joseph Smith:

And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Look, and behold thy seed, and also the seed of thy brethren. And I looked and beheld the land of promise; and I beheld multitudes of people, yea, even as it were in number as many as the sand of the sea.

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land.

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments—then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea.

Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

And behold, as they were crossing the river Sidon, the Lamanites and the Amlicites, being as numerous almost, as it were, as the sands of the sea, came upon them to destroy them.

(Into Chesapeake Bay)

And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.

And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not.

And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.

Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

[Tator]

I can easily imagine that when Joe was running around chasing Captain Kidd's treasure he would have learned how to drink, smoke and even swear like a sailor. Great stuff for his future novel.

[MG 2.0]

Joseph Smith was no Tolkien.

Regards,
MG

mg, of course you are correct here. Joseph Smith was Joseph Smith an individual with his own interests and abilities. They would not match some other individual for comparisons.

Does his book have lands to the south of where the Nephites landed?

Sorry I’m late getting back to you. May I suggest you give this article a read?

http://www.bmaf.org/node/499

If you have further interest, go onto:

http://www.bmaf.org/articles/footprints ... __anderson

Go here for more articles written by Joe V. Andersen

http://www.bmaf.org/articles-by-author

The reason I’m recommending his writing is because he takes somewhat of a different position than both the Heartlanders/Neville folks and the traditional mesoamericanists.

I’ll leave you to do what you will with these sources.

Regards,
MG