Shulem to a wider audience

[Philo Sofee]

Yes, if Joseph Smith was a charlatan then what you say is true. And there have been plenty of charlatans.

Back in the early 19th century how would you suggest God should have straightened out the Christian world with the hope of getting everyone on the same page, etc.?

And if those ideas included correct doctrines and practices that are “the most important ideas in human history” what would you suggest might have been a step by step plan He should/could have gone with?

After all is said and done things turned out pretty well for the restoration, that is if you think temples, authority, correct understanding of God and what He requires (commandments, ordinances, repentance, etc.), have any bearing on human progression.

There are plenty of armchair critics that have their opinions on how it shouldn’t have been done.

My question is the opposite of that.

Regards,
MG

I’d have to really work to think of something more ridiculous than rock in a hat.

If Joseph Smith said a talking cat told him the Book of Mormon, you would be defending that idiocy too.

Or an actual space alien beamed into his bedroom and became his friend and talked to him and taught him arcane knowledge...

[Philo Sofee]

MG
Me thinks you are stuck into a position that you cannot wiggle out of.

I don't need to wiggle, so it's all good... I am entirely comfortable with it.

[Philo Sofee]

MG
The fact is, he (and you) are not REALLY able to come up with a translation process that fits what actually occurred.

Amusingly the implication is that you do know the translation process when, in point of fact, Joseph Smith never actually described its process and its all been guess work with a smattering of clues here or there which have settled nothing for 200 years, with fundamentally no one knowing this information... and, allow me to save you an extra post, I most certainly do not entertain the whitewashed "official church history version" of said event.

[Shulem]

MG is a gift to this board because he gets me thinking. Why should we even think or assume that the rock was in the hat? For all we know it was hardly if ever in the hat. It was all a ploy! Sleight of hand, baby. See here.

Man, you’re really changing things up. It will be interesting to see if you can sway the audience as easily as you did with Delmarva.

No seerstone. Any takers?

It's line upon line and precept upon precept in unraveling the mystery of the Smith.



Hat, rock, and channeling revelation from God about a golden book under a cloth on the table?

Wow, that is the origins of Mormonism and the mysteries all come down to whether the rock was in the hat or in his hand.

YOU decide!

[Shulem]

I'm explaining Smith's method and modus operandi in fooling his scribes.

Man, they were stupid and sheesh, he was smart.

Look, you're being unfair, MG. You're putting words in my mouth, I think. I don't recall saying Oliver or Emma were stupid because they were not and if I did then I take that back! They were fooled by a trickster who exerted charismatic influence in fooling them that he was channeling the divine. They fell for it.

So, tidy up your game a bit, would you, please?

[Shulem]

Need some more help here also, RFM.

I can't speak for RFM but I think he's too busy to banter with you. He is busy making more podcasts in which more and more people will leave the Church and less and less people will join the Church. RFM is on a mission! His time is too valuable to waste here.

[Shulem]

MG
The fact is, he (and you) are not REALLY able to come up with a translation process that fits what actually occurred.

Amusingly the implication is that you do know the translation process when, in point of fact, Joseph Smith never actually described its process and its all been guess work with a smattering of clues here or there which have settled nothing for 200 years, with fundamentally no one knowing this information... and, allow me to save you an extra post, I most certainly do not entertain the whitewashed "official church history version" of said event.

I learned everything I know from Joseph Fielding Smith. Then I found out just how much I didn't know. That was a bloody revelation no thanks to Joseph Fielding Smith.

[Shulem]

MG
Me thinks you are stuck into a position that you cannot wiggle out of.

I don't need to wiggle, so it's all good... I am entirely comfortable with it.

I wonder what narrow neck of land MG is going to wiggle in? There are several on the map for him to choose from. He only need step in and say, "That's the narrow neck I choose." Then we can begin to have some fun! Watch Shulem manhandle him.

[MG 2.0]

Need some more help here also, RFM.

I can't speak for RFM but I think he's too busy to banter with you. He is busy making more podcasts in which more and more people will leave the Church and less and less people will join the Church. RFM is on a mission! His time is too valuable to waste here.

He pops in and out of here all the time. In his podcast he readily admitted that he didn’t know how Joseph actually carried out the so called con. He attempted to draw a one to one comparison with what he knows about magic tricks.

It didn’t fly.

With the witness accounts and other information that’s out there I think RFM’s arguments for simply calling Joseph Smith a skilled magician to explain away the translation and the complexity of the Book of Mormon were more or less a cheap trick.

I do agree with you that RFM is on a mission.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I don't recall saying Oliver or Emma were stupid because they were not and if I did then I take that back…

That they could have been deceived through magician’s tricks during the length and breadth of the Book of Mormon translation is a far fetched theory.

You’re not going to get many people to join the crowd of critics who would simply like to ignore the problems that crop up with looking at Oliver, Emma, and the other witnesses as being ‘fooled’ by so called magic tricks.

I’m sure you’ve read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Investigating-Mo ... 1/ref=nodl_

And I’m doubly sure you will respond that you’re not going to give an apologist the time of day.

But the facts are not in your favor or supportive of RFM’s efforts to portray Joseph Smith as a simple magician/con artist.

I suppose we may have to leave it at that.

Regards,
MG