“Wither she did go” ??

[Shulem]

*puts on apologist hat*

The word for ship/boat in Hebrew is feminine.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Are you sure? Do you have an authoritative link in which this is expressed?

Ok, I found this and it certainly suggest that the word is feminine:

Strong's Concordance
oniyyah: a ship
Original Word: אֱנִיָּה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: oniyyah
Phonetic Spelling: (on-ee-yaw')
Definition: a ship

But still, only a specialist can tell us whether ships (before 600 BC) were actually referred to as "her" or "she" in nautical terms as it is today. That is why we need David Bokovoy.

I'm curious of what degree of nouns are feminine in the Hebrew language vs. the masculine.

[Doctor Steuss]

*puts on apologist hat*

The word for ship/boat in Hebrew is feminine.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Are you sure? Do you have an authoritative link in which this is expressed?

Hi Shulem,

Here's the entry for the word from Pealim (a Hebrew learning site).

On the "Biblical" front, I don't know if Brown-Dryer-Briggs is authoritative at all (or just woefully outdated), but: Here is BDB

I don't know that this would necessarily translate over to referring to a ship in the feminine though, like other feminine/masculine noun languages. If nothing else, I guess we can rule out ships being referred to as "she" because of dedication to a particular goddess...

[Moksha]

Was Joseph familiar with the sea shanty, What do you do with a Drunken Sailor? That would have been a fun inclusion in the Book! I would love to hear my ward choir sing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMOyOlmBYCU

[Shulem]

I don't know that this would necessarily translate over to referring to a ship in the feminine though, like other feminine/masculine noun languages. If nothing else, I guess we can rule out ships being referred to as "she" because of dedication to a particular goddess...

I think it's safe to say that Jews during the time of Lehi did not ascribe nautical terms of adoration towards goddesses as in other cultures. However, we still have the question of whether the Jews used the feminine expression while seafaring or if the word just has the feminine quality for word sake. I'm sure there are experts who can weigh in on this matter and give us the rundown.

My instincts tell me that seafaring Jews did not employ feminine expression towards their ships as they went about in their seafaring ways. At least the Bible does not give me that impression or suggest it in literary terms. The book Late War has plenty of examples and Smith would have picked up on that.

Was Joseph familiar with the sea shanty, What do you do with a Drunken Sailor? That would have been a fun inclusion in the Book! I would love to hear my ward choir sing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMOyOlmBYCU

Pour the RUM! Drinks on deck for everyone! Clap ur hands and tamp your feet and pour Laman & Lemual another double!

Everyone drink and dance! Make merry and yo ho! We be drunken sailors of the Lord!

And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.

She's a mighty fine ship, son.



Pray that Lehi doesn't drop his brass ball.

[Moksha]

Pour the RUM! Drinks on deck for everyone! Clap ur hands and tamp your feet and pour Laman & Lemuel another double!

Wouldn't the Lehite Company of Discovery, bound for Delmarva, be more drinkers of Mead (made from Deseret honey) which had been made kosher by Patriarch Lehi? On the other hand, I could see those Lehites working all night on a drink of rum, but daylight comes and they want to go home. They would shout, "Day-me say day me say day me say-day-o. Daylight comes and me want go home."

[Shulem]

Pour the RUM! Drinks on deck for everyone! Clap ur hands and tamp your feet and pour Laman & Lemuel another double!

Wouldn't the Lehite Company of Discovery, bound for Delmarva, be more drinkers of Mead (made from Deseret honey) which had been made kosher by Patriarch Lehi? On the other hand, I could see those Lehites working all night on a drink of rum, but daylight comes and they want to go home. They would shout, "Day-me say day me say day me say-day-o. Daylight comes and me want go home."

I don't think there is any question that Joseph Smith imagined alcohol was at play during the parties they had while aboard Nephi's ship. They just drank a little too much. They got carried away with the honey wine, for sure.

Look again how the AUTHOR Joseph Smith described their actions:

And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.

Compare that with other drunks in the Book of Mormon in which a single verse tells us exactly how Joseph Smith envisioned drunken folks which goes right back to Lehi's drunken ship with all that liquor aboard:

And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all drunken.

and thus they did try all their liquors



And thus we see how I, Shulem, have questioned the use of the word "she" in Jewish nautical expression and have asked for references to show this was acceptable speech. And now, I've shown that Lehi packed his ship like a pirate full of rum and honey wine to set out to explore the New World. But the crew gave into liquor and drank too much. They had a word of wisdom problem! drunken fools under Lehi's inspired watch. A ship full of alcoholics!

[Father Francis]

She's a mighty fine ship, son.



Pray that Lehi doesn't drop his brass ball.

I've seen that painting a million times and it just occurred to me that how ripped that little kid is. he has the forearms of seasoned adult body builder. Why?

[Shulem]

She's a mighty fine ship, son.



Pray that Lehi doesn't drop his brass ball.

I've seen that painting a million times and it just occurred to me that how ripped that little kid is. Why?

Because Mormons love to romanticize and exaggerate things in order to increase their faith and validate testimony. According to the story, Lehi had two sons in the wilderness (Jacob & Joseph) so the young man in the painting can't be either of them for obvious reasons, he's too old and physically developed. But curious how he manages to find his place in front of Nephi and at the side of mother Sariah. I think the artist was attempting to create an ideal image of what was considered the perfect image of a righteous young man who keeps all the commandments (thou shalt not fist pump in the wee hours of the night) and look at those muscles and ripped abs! What a grip!

*puts on apologist hat*The word for ship/boat in Hebrew is feminine.

Then there is this:

Hebrew, at its core, is a gendered language. Every word in the ancient language is categorized as zachar, male, or nekevah, female. Every noun from furniture to food is either a he or a she, and every adjective and verb has a male and female form.

This leads me to think the language itself is categorized into two groups: male & female. But it doesn't lead me to think that a word within that group means it's referred to by that particular gender when in play. In fact, it seems there is some gender confusion or that the gender of the word is not translated into real life circumstances.

Example of feminine noun:

Foreskin!



Example of masculine noun:

Womb!



Go figure. I therefore don't see how the apologists can automatically justify Book of Mormon usage of female gender to ships just because the noun is feminine in the Hebrew. If there are no classic examples of gender being applied to seafaring vessels in Jewish literature prior to 600BC then there is nothing to support Smith's Book of Mormon translation other than Late War and modern nautical expression.

If there are no classic examples of gender being applied to seafaring vessels in Jewish literature prior to 600BC then there is nothing to support Smith's Book of Mormon translation other than Late War and modern nautical expression.

And, if this be the case, then I think my accusation of Smith plagiarizing feminine terms that he was familiar with into ancient Jewish custom is an all NEW anachronism that needs to be thoroughly investigated by specialists whether they are apologists or critics.

I think we (critics) can get a lot of mileage out of this.

[Bret Ripley]

Was Joseph familiar with the sea shanty, What do you do with a Drunken Sailor?

I think maybe Smith would have been more of a "Spanish Ladies" kind of guy. "Farewell and adieu to you, Spanish ladies ..."

[malkie]

*puts on apologist hat*

The word for ship/boat in Hebrew is feminine.

Then there is this:

Hebrew, at its core, is a gendered language. Every word in the ancient language is categorized as zachar, male, or nekevah, female. Every noun from furniture to food is either a he or a she, and every adjective and verb has a male and female form.

This leads me to think the language itself is categorized into two groups: male & female. But it doesn't lead me to think that a word within that group means it's referred to by that particular gender when in play. In fact, it seems there is some gender confusion or that the gender of the word is not translated into real life circumstances.

Example of feminine noun:

Foreskin!



Example of masculine noun:

Womb!



Go figure. I therefore don't see how the apologists can automatically justify Book of Mormon usage of female gender to ships just because the noun is feminine in the Hebrew. If there are no classic examples of gender being applied to seafaring vessels in Jewish literature prior to 600BC then there is nothing to support Smith's Book of Mormon translation other than Late War and modern nautical expression.

The question for me is - when giving the translation of the original language to English (which has masculine, feminine and neuter genders), did God want the English pronoun to be feminine?

By the way, what do we know about how Reformed Egyptian handled issues of noun/pronoun gender, and the attribution of gender to inanimate objects? Does the GAEL throw any light on the subject?