How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
DrStakhanovite
Elder
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:55 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by DrStakhanovite »

msnobody wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:59 pm
Just curious, how did the DMT experience compare/contrast with the LSD experience?
I found the legitimate LSD (as opposed to the synthetic variants commonly sold illegally here in the U.S. at large events) to be a subtle experience, like slipping into a warm bath. There are visuals, but they emerge from the patterns of your environment and for me they ebbed and flowed with the music. The thing I remember most was the sensation of losing a first person perspective and it being replaced by a feeling of an interconnectedness with everything else sharing my space. I could think about traumatic memories with ease and the distressing characteristics of those memories were completely absent, yet the content remained unchanged somehow. It made me dwell on how my consciousness could be a complete illusion and how at peace I was with that, given the fact I felt like I was already in a state of total union with the universe. It was about six hours of an appreciable high.

We put the liquid LSD on gummy bears with a dropper, so it took some time to metabolize, but the DMT was smoked and the effects were experienced as being nearly instantaneous. Right away I felt like I was on a rocket traveling at high speeds, then everything whited out and all I could hear was a loud ringing. Eventually I felt like I was in an all white room, when this being appeared and started to sing to me.

This “being” looked like a sexless mannequin with no features other than being thin, entirely smooth, light blue in color, and human shaped. It hand no mouth or eyes, but I clearly heard its voice talking to me in this singing language that made absolutely no sense to me, but somehow was able to communicate and elicit sensations. At some point these intense geometric patterns appeared and this being gave me this guided tour of the shapes and with an appendage that had absolutely no digits on it, was pointing out symbols written on the surface of the shapes that appeared to be vaguely mathematical or logical characters, but more Sumerian, if that makes any sense.

During the experience I felt like I was being instructed in profound secrets and the singing instruction prompted me to feel waves of pleasure. Then,almost as suddenly as it began, the shapes faded, the being was gone, and everything around me looked like a familiar setting. Next thing I knew I was looking at my grinning friend who was patting my shoulder. The entire experience had been about fifteen minutes but felt like it had been considerably longer.

What is most remarkable about both experiences is I came out of it not really wanting to do it again, because (while enjoyable) it still felt like I had endured something and felt like I needed time to recoup before trying again. That is why I appreciate psychedelics over other kinds of intoxicants, it really isn’t so much as an escape from the world, your problems and emotions come with you, but during the journey your perspective on them changes temporarily.

It has been some time since both experiences and I haven’t used either substance since and probably never will again. Like everything else, there are diminishing returns when it comes to tripping and the more frequently you do it, it stops being enlightening and turns into you simply getting high because you can (which is never a good thing).
Image
User avatar
DrStakhanovite
Elder
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:55 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by DrStakhanovite »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:17 pm
lol. Jack Parson's, Aleister Crowley, L. Ron Hubbard making his appearance....That's more than a treat. I'm so glad you made your appearance on this thread. No offense to Don but it was weird he invoked Huxley opening us all up to this. Its incredibly interesting stuff, but it blows my mind how its seen as a credible way to view things.
That might just be habituation. Electrons are weird entities and at times it strikes me as absurd that we collectively believe in them despite the vast majority of people being totally unaware of how we even came to believe in them and the complicated reasoning it took to get there.
Image
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by dastardly stem »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:12 pm


That might just be habituation. Electrons are weird entities and at times it strikes me as absurd that we collectively believe in them despite the vast majority of people being totally unaware of how we even came to believe in them and the complicated reasoning it took to get there.
Well shoot...I can't account for each of my impressions, let alone every one else's, so i risk to say it seems to me every impression is a result of habituation. There's the point of our seeking answers, or trying to learn something, we're trying to habituate ourselves onto something good or true. Anyway, I'm prone to overstating things for dramatic effect. Its my habit that I will only shake in time, if I ever decide to hone in on it and break that habit.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Marcus
God
Posts: 5905
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Marcus »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:29 pm
You are ignorant about some things.
:lol: A classic professor-to-professor line, so common as to be mundane and as such merits nothing more than an eyeroll and a chuckle, although less seen these days as faculty meetings become more civilized. Thanks for the memories, and for the laughs.
User avatar
Rivendale
God
Posts: 1294
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Rivendale »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:04 am
By the way, to be clear, I do believe in something beyond the observable physical world. My experience with it is my own subjective reality. I have no idea what it is - I simply don’t know. But that belief remains, however irrational it might be.
Do you ever challenge it?
User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 1855
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Dr Moore »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:39 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:04 am
By the way, to be clear, I do believe in something beyond the observable physical world. My experience with it is my own subjective reality. I have no idea what it is - I simply don’t know. But that belief remains, however irrational it might be.
Do you ever challenge it?
Sure. And I’m aware it could be lingering willingness to be fooled by randomness. But, I no longer attach much specificity, so it’s more like a mix of gratitude and hope. So without a specific dogma to challenge, is there a valid test for belief in “more?”

Lately, I like to think “it” is something inside of me, like love that permeates all living things, waiting to be called on - a sort of door to my best self, or something.

And then I also think, it could be true that there IS an afterlife that is real and yet totally unrevealed, like light in a black hole, it’s just hidden from our frame of reference. But like the quantum stew at the event horizon, just enough informationless energy tunnels out that we can all sense something there, even if it’s impossible to derive a repeatable test of the information inside. (I realize there is some disagreement about information preservation at the event horizon)
User avatar
Rivendale
God
Posts: 1294
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Rivendale »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 11:48 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:39 pm


Do you ever challenge it?
Sure. And I’m aware it could be lingering willingness to be fooled by randomness. But, I no longer attach much specificity, so it’s more like a mix of gratitude and hope. So without a specific dogma to challenge, is there a valid test for belief in “more?”

Lately, I like to think “it” is something inside of me, like love that permeates all living things, waiting to be called on - a sort of door to my best self, or something.

And then I also think, it could be true that there IS an afterlife that is real and yet totally unrevealed, like light in a black hole, it’s just hidden from our frame of reference. But like the quantum stew at the event horizon, just enough informationless energy tunnels out that we can all sense something there, even if it’s impossible to derive a repeatable test of the information inside. (I realize there is some disagreement about information preservation at the event horizon)
I think I can relate. Like the feeling you can't erase about some aspects of foreverness and the sadness that this could be it. Sometimes I still fall into the Mormon trap of wondering what my parents are doing in the after life even though I completely dismiss it 99% of the time. Insidious in a way. But when you think about it it gives a calm of sorts that I can see could be intoxicating to many.
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2990
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by doubtingthomas »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 4:51 pm
Eventually I felt like I was in an all white room, when this being appeared and started to sing to me.

This “being” looked like a sexless mannequin with no features other than being thin, entirely smooth, light blue in color, and human shaped.
Incredible. Do you think the "being" is real? Or was it all just a hallucination? Would you guess Near Death experiences are similar?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2990
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Don Bradley wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:17 am
And, as Aldous Huxley in The Perennial Philosophy and others have shown, they tend to arrive at a surprisingly consistent view of that transcendent, and of this world's relationship to it, despite wide variances in their cultural contexts.
Doesn't the Phantom God theory explain the Perennial Philosophy?
https://www.amazon.com/Phantom-God-Neur ... 1633888061

I am very interested in your opinion. I won't try to "debunk" your response, I promise.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
DrStakhanovite
Elder
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:55 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by DrStakhanovite »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 1:30 am
Incredible. Do you think the "being" is real? Or was it all just a hallucination? Would you guess Near Death experiences are similar?
There is just no way that singing entity is real outside my pharmaceutically induced state of altered consciousness. If there is another facet of reality to be explored that can be described as “supernatural”, I don’t see how psychedelics makes such exploration possible. How exactly can biochemical events in a human body enable contact with entities that are essentially invisible to physics?

NDE are even a less plausible example in my opinion, because we know considerably less about what is going on in a person's brain during the last few moments of life.
Image
Post Reply